Genuine Salvation is Forever

[Silverhair]

To obey righteousness is by receiving the gift. Which cannot be earned. See Romans 4:4-5.

Either what one deserves or the gift. No amount of works can equal the earned death.


Does not change the problem.


It becomes no different than never being saved.

Matthew 7:23, never being saved. Trusting in their works, Matthew 7:22. Contrary to God's will, verse 21.

You still have not dealt with the obvious problem that your OSAS presents. And I agree it does not change the problem you have. What happens to a persons free will after salvation?

Your cryptic responses do not actually deal with the issue. It is really a simple question. Do they have a free will subsequent to salvation? That only requires a YES or NO answer.

As you correctly said it becomes no different than never being saved. But they were saved and that is the issue that you continue to dance around.

 

[37818]

You still have not dealt with the obvious problem that your OSAS presents. And I agree it does not change the problem you have. What happens to a persons free will after salvation?

Your cryptic responses do not actually deal with the issue. It is really a simple question. Do they have a free will subsequent to salvation? That only requires a YES or NO answer.

As you correctly said it becomes no different than never being saved. But they were saved and that is the issue that you continue to dance around.

Salvation is wholly God's doing the saving and God wholly doing the keeping. John 10:28-29, a case in point. . . . eternal life . . . never perish . . . Those who deny 1 John 5:9-13 are calling God a liar per verse 10. If a person knows God, how can one not know God? The lost do not know God per Romans 8:9! See 1 John 5:12.

 

[JonC]

By the term, salvation has to be eternal. Otherwise it is potential to be saved" (which may be the intended meaning some have when using the word).

The reason is that salvation points to being saved from something that will occur in the future. If one is saved then they are saved.

 

[Silverhair]

Salvation is wholly God's doing the saving and God wholly doing the keeping. John 10:28-29, a case in point. . . . eternal life . . . never perish . . . Those who deny 1 John 5:9-13 are calling God a liar per verse 10. If a person knows God, how can one not know God? The lost do not know God per Romans 8:9! See 1 John 5:12.

Did I say that they did not know God, NO. Of course they know Him and that is why they trusted in Him for their salvation. What I said is that they latter turn away from God and deny Him as Lord and savior. Even those that fall away from their trust in Him still know who He is, they just deny that He is the source of their salvation.

I agree that those that trust in Christ will be saved, but that is the condition, they continue to believe in Him.

It seems you think that once a person believes and are saved they could never turn away. But why is that? Do you not think they have a free will anymore? Since they had a free will with which to choose to trust in God why would they not have the same free will to reject Him?

I do not disagree with any of the scripture that you have posted, the problem is that none of them prove your case. None say a saved person cannot latter deny God and reject salvation through Him.

 

[Silverhair]

By the term, salvation has to be eternal. Otherwise it is potential to be saved" (which may be the intended meaning some have when using the word).

The reason is that salvation points to being saved from something that will occur in the future. If one is saved then they are saved.

Since eternal salvation, as you are viewing it, is only after one has passed from this life then I would agree with you. But that is not how most people would understand it. As you can see from this thread some think that eternal salvation is the here and now position.

The OSAS position seems to be that once you say you have trusted in Christ Jesus then you are saved no matter what. For those that latter turn away from God they say, well they never really were saved. In that respect the OSAS view is just like the calvinist one.

It seems that both the calvinist and the OSAS has to deny the reality that we see in the church.

 

[JonC]

Since eternal salvation, as you are viewing it, is only after one has passed from this life then I would agree with you. But that is not how most people would understand it. As you can see from this thread some think that eternal salvation is the here and now position.

The OSAS position seems to be that once you say you have trusted in Christ Jesus then you are saved no matter what. For those that latter turn away from God they say, well they never really were saved. In that respect the OSAS view is just like the calvinist one.

It seems that both the calvinist and the OSAS has to deny the reality that we see in the church.

I'm not saying it is after one has passed from this life, but that if we are saved it is from a future event (Judgment, the wrath to come) and must by definition be eternal (either one is saved or not).

So the wording has to be that no body is saved in this life or all who are saved are so eternally.

Example- if you are saved now from a car crash that will happen in ten years then when that car accident happens you will be saved.....if not you were never actully saved from that wreck.

But I think we agree. It's how words are used that are problematic (saved is past tence but the event from which we are saved is in the future).

 

[Silverhair]

I'm not saying it is after one has passed from this life, but that if we are saved it is from a future event (Judgment, the wrath to come) and must by definition be eternal (either one is saved or not).

So the wording has to be that no body is saved in this life or all who are saved are so eternally.

Example- if you are saved now from a car crash that will happen in ten years then when that car accident happens you will be saved.....if not you were never actully saved from that wreck.

But I think we agree. It's how words are used that are problematic (saved is past tence but the event from which we are saved is in the future).

True but the condition for being saved is faith. If one has trusted in Christ then they are saved but if they latter reject Christ then they would now be under God's judgement.

We can know that we are saved in this life if we meet the condition that God has set, FAITH in Him. If ten years down the road we decide to repudiate that faith are we still saved? NO, because we now no longer have FAITH in Him. It is not that they were never saved it is that they are no longer saved.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Hebrews was written to Hebrews (Jews), halting between two opinions. They were hearing it taught that the Lord Jesus was the promised Messiah, but they were still trusting the Mosaic sacrificial system, and were holding back from putting faith in the Lord Jesus. That’s quite clear in the context of the book.

so the Book of Hebrews is not for ALL who believe in Jesus Christ, and ONLY for the Jews who converted? This is complete rubbish!

 

[SavedByGrace]

These words in Hebrews chapter 10, are addressed to ALL truly born again Christians, and not only to Jewish believers, or those who are only "seeking" the Truth

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"

These are said to have been SANCTIFIED by the Blood of Jesus Christ, which cannot ever refer to any of those who are unsaved!

These are also referred to "His People", which again is used for THE SAVED!

Otherwise this WARNING is nothing more than EMPTY words!

In 3:12 we read of this WARNING, "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God"

To those who are BRETHREN, a term ONLY for those who are SAVED!

ἀφίστημι (departing), means to DESERT, to WITHDRAW, to DEPART.

Also, note that these BRETHREN/BELIEVERS, could have an EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF!

 

[SavedByGrace]

By the term, salvation has to be eternal. Otherwise it is potential to be saved" (which may be the intended meaning some have when using the word).

The reason is that salvation points to being saved from something that will occur in the future. If one is saved then they are saved.

what do you think Hebrews 3:6 means, "but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end". Note, "IF we hold fast"; "firm to the end"

And, verse 14, "For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end"

I see CONDITIONS used here.

These words also refer to all born-again

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

 

[JonC]

True but the condition for being saved is faith. If one has trusted in Christ then they are saved but if they latter reject Christ then they would now be under God's judgement.

.

But then they would never have been saved (saved from the judgment) because they experience the thing they were supposedly saved from.

That's the issue with applying a past tence word to a future event without a concrete status. The event proves or disproves the validity.

The former belief in Christ was illegitimate (it was not a saving faith as evidenced by the lack of salvation).

We see this throughout Scripture (with the Jews who were ultimately lost although they believed themselves God's people, with the believers who possessed a useless belief, with those who cry "Lord, Lord" but hear "I never knew you", with the command to test oneself to see if one is truly saved, etc.).

You and I would agree that those found without faith are lost. Our disagreement is whether they were at one time saved.

My point is the ultimate proof is not in believing one is saved at a moment in time but actually escaping that wrath to come.

 

[JonC]

what do you think Hebrews 3:6 means, "but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end". Note, "IF we hold fast"; "firm to the end"

And, verse 14, "For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end"

I see CONDITIONS used here.

These words also refer to all born-again

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

I see the verse as saying that those who are saved, those who are of His house, are those who hold firm until the end.

This does not mean people are saved, of His house, and then are not saved and of His house for not holding firm. Those who do not hold firm were never saved as evidenced by their not holding firm until the end.

I agree with you that salvation is conditional.

I disagree that those who do not hold firm until the end were at one time saved. I believe their once held faith was not a saving faith as evidenced by its inability to save (to hold firm until the end).

 

[SavedByGrace]

I disagree that those who do not hold firm until the end were at one time saved. I believe their once held faith was not a saving faith as evidenced by its inability to save (to hold firm until the end)

then the warning, which it is meant to be, is quite pointless

 

[SavedByGrace]

My point is the ultimate proof is not in believing one is saved at a moment in time but actually escaping that wrath to come

what are you on about?

 

[37818]

It seems you think that once a person believes and are saved they could never turn away.

The New Covenant, Jeremiah 31:31-34 is the Covenant God keeps. Verse 34, . . . for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

That means those whom God accepts in His New Covenant are permanetly forgiven. See Revelation 3:5, Revelation 20:6. The lost no longer have their name in the book of life, Revelation 20:15, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[JonC]

then the warning, which it is meant to be, is quite pointless

The warning is important because of the context (the Hebrews benefitted, according to Paul, but what if their faith does not continue until fruition and instead they turn back?).

 

[JonC]

what are you on about?

I am rejecting the claim that we are "of His house" but can become "not of His house".

The reason I reject that claim is Scripture is very clear that if we do not hold firm until the end we were not of His house.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I am rejecting the claim that we are "of His house" but can become "not of His house".

The reason I reject that claim is Scripture is very clear that if we do not hold firm until the end we were not of His house.

Do you believe in P of TULIP?

 

[Van]

Q. If a man turns away from his faith will God force him to be in heaven even though he does not believe in God anymore?

A. If he CAN turn away, he will, because he has never been born again, never been saved, and never knew Christ and He never knew them who do so. He is a hog that was washed (outwardly) but still has a hog’s heart, a hog’s nature, and will revert to his wallowing in the mud of sin. They remain hogs and never were transformed into sheep.

Christ’s sheep are known of Him, known by name, and while Christ NEVER knew the lost, yet He knows all His sheep and His sheep shall NEVER perish.

The new birth is REAL, and one who has been supernaturally transformed into that new creation, made a partaker of the divine nature, fitted for Heaven, CANNOT revert back to being the slug he once was, fit only for hell, any more than a butterfly can revert to being a crawling caterpillar worm again. His will is now found in God’s will, for He lives to do the will of Him Who gave him the new birth of His own will, a new heart after God’s heart, and a new life in Christ Jesus, walking no longer by the flesh but by the Holy Spirit of God.

Excellent thread Opening Post!! Thanks

1) Yes, those born anew CANNOT turn away from their faith as it is protected (kept) by the power of God. 1 Peter 1:3-5

2) Yes, those born anew have become Christ's sheep and Christ "knows" them!

3) No, our will does not always conform to God's will, we can "quench" our indwelt Helper. Yes we are able to follow Christ, but we must pick up our cross and follow Him.

 

[MrW]

Jesus explained. See Luke 8:13, . . . on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. . . . In other words did not believe into salvation.

See Colossians 2:7

Yes, they believed in vain. Their obviously was not real.

1 Corinthians 15:2
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.