37818
Well-Known Member
It goes to the numerous texts interpreted to mean those God saves cannot become lost. Like John 6:37 etc.
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Genuine Salvation is Forever
- Thread starter MrW
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I agree
It is the exact same salvation that each believer has when they trust in Christ Jesus.
Yes, that is what the bible says
You base this on what. Salvation is salvation. There are not different types. Each person is saved when they believe, one maintains they belief and another latter denies that belief. In both cases the belief was true and the person was saved.
Are you suggesting that a person does not have the free will to change their mind? Remember everyone that is saved had to make the choice to trust the gospel message.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
@MrW you are trying to conflate two different books and situations.
Heb 6:4-6 is speaking of those that have been enlightened G5461 {to enlighten, spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge}. They are partakers G3353 of the Holy Spirit {of the salvation procured by him}
"if they fall away" The warning is meaningless if it were not possible for one to fall away from the salvation that they now had. So we can know that these are Christians.
Mat 7:23 is speaking of those that have professed faith in Christ but it was not a real faith just a spoken one. Note Christ's words ""Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven,..."
So you are correct, God cannot lie. And He has not.
I base it on several things:
1. Scripture states that those who are partakers of Christ are those who hold fast to the end.
2. Scripture states that those who are of His house are those who hold fast to the end.
3. Scripture states that Christ will loose none.
4. Scripture states that there is a belief that fails and a belief that saves.
5. Scripture states that those who do believe has eternal (or everlasting) life rather than a temporary life.
6. Scripture tells is to test our faith to determine if we are truly among the elect.
7. Scripture describes several types of faith....for example, one is abandoned when overcome by the troubles of the world..
And another grows fully.
I cannot accept your position without denying several passages.
I am not saying a person cannot change his or her mind. I am saying that those who have a type of belief that holds fast is saved and those who do not are not saved.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Joh 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
This does not say that what you need it to say.
On the other hand we do see that God does cut off some.
Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
So while they were saved they could still be cut off.
John 6:39–40 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
I get that you believe that will not happen. I believe it will happen.
I absolutely agree with the Roman passages you provide. That is my point. Many will say "Lord, Lord" only to hear "I don't know you".
Nothing that you post here....absolutely nothing....can change the fact God has said repeatedly that it is those who hold fast to the end who are partakers in Christ, who ate of His house.
I understand you wish it were not so, and I understand why you can't accept those passages. Calvinists have the same issue with other verses.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
All those saved even those that latter fall away
All those saved even those that latter fall away
But that does not stop a person from walking away.
Yes head faith and heart faith, but that still does not stop a person from turning away does it?
Those that continue to believe that is why the warnings
Why the need to test your faith if you can not loose it?
Yes it is abandoned, thus the warnings we see in scripture and that you just referred to
37818
Well-Known Member
We do not agree.
Titus 1:2, . . . In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; . . .
I cannot cause you to understand my view.
God solely does the saving. And God solely does the keeping of whom He saves.
Without those two concepts being absolutely true, no one can actually know one is saved because no one knows how one's self will change one's mind.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Jon, let me clarify some things for you.
1] I agree that only those that hold fast to their faith will have eternal life
2] The fact that one believes now does not guarantee that they will always believe, thus the warnings
3] The bible is clear that those that believe are partakers in Christ. To deny that is to deny scripture.
4] I accept the bible as the Holy Spirit inspired it which includes the warnings.
I have no problem believing that some will place their trust in Christ Jesus only latter to reject Him for various reasons. The bible is clear on that and so is real life. I understand that you struggle with this but that does not change the facts.
It seems you have to hold to the OSAS view which is just another way of stating Calvin's Evanescent faith.
What we can both agree on is that those that do continue in faith will be with Christ in heaven
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I agree with this comment 'God solely does the saving. And God solely does the keeping of whom He saves.'
And they are true. What you still will not deal with is the warning passages that the Holy Spirit inspired. Do you not trust that they are there for a reason?
God saves those and only those that believe in Him.
I can not cause you to understand my view but I can ask that you trust what the bible says.
The problem I have with your interpretation here is that the text does not ascribe salvation to those who are not "partakers of Christ" and "of His house", BUT Scripture specifically stares that it is those who hold fast to the end that are "partakers of Christ" and "of His house".
And Scripture states that people believe with a faith or belief that does not lead to salvation.
As I noted before, we define salvation differently. I believe to be saved one must be a partaker of Christ and of His house. You can't without denying Scripture so you hold a more benign idea of salvation.
And that is fine. In the end we agree that o ly those who hold fast will be saved.
I don't see how you can given your comments about belief equating to salvation and then that one could believe and then fall away.
Scripture specifically states that those who believe have eternal life.
Regarding OSAS, I suppose I believe that but not in a Calvinistic way. Calvinism bases eternal life (salvation) on Christ paying our sin debt instead of us. I do not hold Calvinism or even Calvinistic Atonement (Penal Substitution Theory).
My view is that if one has a faith that will hold fast until the end then that person is saved. If one does not, then they are not saved regardless of what they think.
37818
Well-Known Member
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I just take the words "in Christ" to mean we are in Christ. But perhaps you have a different take on those words. If one is "in Christ" are they not a partaker of Christ? That is where the difference is Jon. You see it happening only in the future and I see it in the present.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I trust in Christ Jesus that I have eternal life just as anyone that trusts in Him has. Eternal life is in the present not at some future date. But as the warning passages make clear even those that presently have eternal life can forfeit it if they turn away.
All I know is Scripture states that those who are "partakers of Christ" and "of His house" are those who hold fast to the end.
I can accept those passages without having to question whether they are right or how they fit into my theology.
To your second point - you are wrong and I have already told you why you are wrong about what I believe. But I will again.
Those who have a faith that will endure are saved in the present. They are "of His house", "partakers of Christ" because they hold on to their faith to the end.
I NEVER said that we are only saved in the future. I said that salvation in the present is an expression of that future salvation.
"Eternal" by definition includes the future.
The passage, if you are right, should be that those who believe have the opportunity to inherit eternal life. If I an right, "belief" is more than a cognitive acceptance of something.
You can't have eternal life in the present and not have it in the future by definition.
The warnings are to a Hebrew people (the things mentioned as basic are things that made up the Hebrew foundation anticipating a Messiah).
Hebrews was written to those halting between two opinions. The ones contemplating going back under the Mosaic sacrificial system had not been born again. When a person is born again they have a new nature, the divine nature, and they will never turn their back on God. Peter said the sow returned to her wallowing in the mite. It’s because the sow was still a sow. It had never become a sheep. Christ’s sheep never perish. It’s impossible. The Holy Spirit indwelling the born again Christian will not allow even one sheep to be lost.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
It says, they “escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” That is a distinctly Christian experience!
I feel for Apostle Peter because I have experienced the same gut wrenching agony that he felt when he saw his dear and precious brothers in Christ once again become entangled in the defilements of the world. However, for me there was the additional agony caused by my friends telling me that “Ken” was never saved! They had never prayed with Ken or worshipped Christ with him. They had never rejoiced or lamented with him. They had never laughed or cried with him. They had never shared a meal with him. They never knew anything at all about him, and yet they had the audacity to say that he was never saved—all because their deeply flawed 16th century doctrine says that he could not have been saved because he fell away from his exemplary Christian life style of twenty-four years. This judgmental behavior on the part of my “friends” was totally unjustified, inexcusable, and cruel. Moreover, Ken and millions like him are proof that the 16th century doctrine should be flushed down the toilet.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. (NASB, 1995)
Up until the 16th century, this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, and the large majority of Bible scholars today still hold to that position. Indeed, this passage of Scripture gives us the most detailed description of what it means to be saved that we find anywhere in the Bible, and the end of these saved persons who subsequently fall away from the Christian faith is eternal damnation in the fires of hell. This was also the doctrine of our earliest Baptist forefathers before some Baptists heard a brand new doctrine that had been recently conceived by some men in Europe, and spread this new doctrine among their Baptist brothers causing it to take over like a firestorm.
The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews wrote his Epistle using the terminology and phraseology of the very early Church. Therefore, in order to accurately interpret the Epistle to the Hebrews, it is essential to have a solid background in the writings of the very early Church and the terminology and phraseology that they used.
The phrase in verse 4, “those who have once been enlightened,” is a reference to water baptism. Indeed, Justin Martyr (died in 165 A.D.) wrote that the term “enlightenment” was used as a synonym for water baptism of converts to Christianity and he uses the term “the enlightened one” for a person who has been baptized. And the Peshitta, an ancient Syriac translation of the Greek New Testament, renders (when translated into English) the phrase in verse 4, “who have gone down into baptism.”
The phrase in verse 4, “have tasted of the heavenly gift,” was variously interpreted during the first 1500 years, but it was ALWAYS interpreted as describing a born-again Christian. Some, for example, saw it to be a reference to the Eucharist; others saw it to be a reference to the teaching of Christ in John 6:31-58. Still others saw it to be a reference to the forgiveness of sins; others saw it to be a reference to the blessings conferred upon the Christian believer.
The phrase in verse 4, “and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,” is an obvious reference to receiving the Holy Spirit, something that, in the New Testament, happens EXCLUSIVELY to those who have been saved.
The phrase in verse 5, “and have tasted the good word of God,” is a clear reference to the Christian’s experience of hearing the word of God preached and taught and the consequential experience of it in his life as a believer.
The phrase in verse 5, “and the powers of the age to come,” is a reference to the miracles that were performed by the Apostles and other Christians as a foreshadowing of the kingdom to come, and to the other blessings that Christians experience now in part but shall experience in their fullness in the future kingdom.
The phrase in verse 6, “and then have fallen away,” can be properly interpreted only to be speaking of falling from grace and the Christian faith, something that can NOT happen until AFTER a person is saved.
The phrases in verse 6, “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame,” tell us of the absolutely horrendous consequence of a Christian falling from grace, making the death of Christ on the cross for his sins to be of no effect. This passage expressly speaks of a person who has heard the Gospel, believed it, was saved and baptized, repented of his sins, and enjoyed the blessing of being a born-again Christian—but who subsequently chose to reject Christ and return to his sins. And the fate of such a person could not possibly be any worse—it is “impossible to renew them again to repentance.” Most obviously it is not impossible to renew an unsaved person to repentance if they have repented but not been born again and then fall back into sin. Therefore, the person spoken of has necessarily been born again but has fallen away from the Christian faith. And the born-again Christian who, of his own free will, chooses to reject the Christ who redeemed him is beyond redemption and damned to the fires of hell for eternity.
Verses 7 & 8 are an analogy used to support the author’s statements. Just as the ground which once brought forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled received a blessing from God, and the ground that now yields thorns and thistles is worthless and ends up being burned, so the Christian which once brought forth good fruit unto God but who now brings forth bad fruit ends up being burned in the fires of hell.
Verse 9 tells us that the author has been warning his Christian readers about things that do not accompany salvation, things that happen to Christians who fall away from the faith. Nonetheless, he is reassuring them that that he does not expect them to fall away, as some others had done, but is convinced of better things concerning them, and things that, in their case, accompany salvation, even though he felt that he needed to warn them of the horrendous consequences of apostasy from the Christian faith.
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