Geographical Calvinism

[All about Grace]

Why do you think that God allowed entire people groups to die without electing any of them?

Because studies show that there are multitudes of people groups around the world where the name of Jesus has never been proclaimed.

Do you think God won't keep his promise to Abraham that through him all the nations of the earth would be blessed? Do you think that Christ didn't purchase "for God persons from every tribe, language, people, and nation"?

My point exactly.

I happen to believe that God has elected and will save people from among all the people groups of the earth.

Then we better "splain" why there are hunderds of thousands of people who will die without ever hearing the name of Jesus.

Geographical election

 

[Bill Brown]

Originally posted by All about Grace:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Why did God wait so long to send the gospel to the Gentiles? Why was faith in Yahweh and the coming Redeemer generally limited to Holy Land?

When the twelve apostles left to become itinerant preachers/evangelists, why did some of the nations accept and others reject?

Why did the birthplace of Christianity (Israel) become apostate and the gospel travel (and thrive) on the opposite end of the globe?*

Could it be that all of this in the plan of God? God is using certain nations of the world to bring the gospel to the world? He has done so in the past. Might He not do it now and in the future?

In light of Calvinism's view of election and irresistable grace and their attempt to redefine "all", these are all questions a Calvinist must seek to answer and still does not answer the original thought: in light of God's obvious love for the world, why does God's election seem restricted to certain people groups? </font>[/QUOTE]It don't believe it is restricted, hence I reject your premise.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by All about Grace:

Here is just one of those puzzling issues ... if Calvinism is true, why is God's election so geographically limited?

Do you mean like when God choose the Jews?...and that nation only?

Was this too..Geographical election?

Not any other nation around this very small nation did God choose. Not any other nation on EARTH did He choose. Was it wrong for God to only give this nation the Law? Was it wrong to have nearly all of the prophets come from this very small nation? Was it wrong to have Chrsit come from this one Geographical place and not another? If God had used the nation Gog, would they not have been blessed?


Was it worng of God to show no mercy on others?
For God to only work with them, when so many others were around and needed God just as much?

I think not

Why not choose one nation as His own. Why not..Pick another nation to give the law to. Choose a 3rd nation for the prophets. maybe Give West Virginia the line that Chrsit came from.

Why not spread it out a little??

Lets make it fair. Lets make God just.

PLEASE!!!!!!!!

STOP TRYING TO REMAKE GOD

 

[All about Grace]

It don't believe it is restricted, hence I reject your premise.

So you reject limited atonement and unconditional election?

 

[All about Grace]

Do you mean like when God choose the Jews?...and that nation only?

Was this too..Geographical election?

Not any other nation around this very small nation did God choose. Not any other nation on EARTH did He choose. Was it wrong for God to only give this nation the Law? Was it wrong to have nearly all of the prophets come from this very small nation? Was it wrong to have Chrsit come from this one Geographical place? If God had used the nation Gog, would they not have been blessed?


Was it worng of God to show no mercy on others?
For God to only work with them, when so many others were around and needed God just as much?

I think not

So you embrace the idea of geographical election?

 

[russell55]

Because studies show that there are multitudes of people groups around the world where the name of Jesus has never been proclaimed.

Yes, but it will be proclaimed there, and some will be saved. And what about elect infant? Calvinists believe that "Elect Infants dying in infancy, are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth: so also are all other elect persons, who are uncapable of being outwardly called by the Ministry of the Word. " Who's to say God hasn't elected many infants in those people groups in which the gospel has yet to be proclaimed?

Your question/challenge makes no sense for a Calvinist. They believe that God, through election to salvation, keeps his promise to Abraham so that around the throne of grace there will truly be "persons from every tribe, language, people, and nation".

Calvinist also believe that the gospel will go out world-wide, and that tribes that haven't been reached yet with the gospel will be reached. God is fulfilling his plan to gather his elect from the four corners of the earth through those who do his work by proclaiming the gospel.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by All about Grace:

So you embrace the idea of geographical election?

I'm saying...Why ask?

Who can know the mind of God?

None of us should be elected....but God does as He pleases

 

[All about Grace]

Calvinists believe that "Elect Infants dying in infancy, are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and ( how he pleaseth: so also are all other elect persons, who are uncapable of being outwardly called by the Ministry of the Word. "

Actually this sentence should be prefaced with the word "some".

This adds a whole different element that we will not tackle in this thread.

They believe that God, through election to salvation, keeps his promise to Abraham so that around the throne of grace there will truly be "persons from every tribe, language, people, and nation".

Which is why the question/challenge makes absolute sense.

God is fulfilling his plan to gather his elect from the four corners of the earth through those who do his work by proclaiming the gospel.

Even though it appears a couple of corners are a little more stacked than the others.

 

[All about Grace]

I'm saying...Why ask?

Who can know the mind of God?

None of us should be elected....but God does as He pleases

Using this same logic, there would be no system known as Calvinism.

 

[All about Grace]

maybe Give West Virginia the line that Chrsit came from.

Because that tree has only one branch

STOP TRYING TO REMAKE GOD

Or even trying to put him in our own human system boxes!

 

[Andy T.]

AAG, please give us your answer to your question - why are many Christians located in certain geographical locations and not in others? I'm sincerely intersted in your thoughts.

 

[russell55]

Actually this sentence should be prefaced with the word "some".

No, it shouldn't. Do you know of one calvinist who believes that there are elect infants who are not saved?

Even though it appears a couple of corners are a little more stacked than the others.

From what perspective? The perspective of 21st century North America? What about 2nd century? What about my Norwegian ancestors back then? Where will the greatest concentration of believers be in 100 years? How would you know if the deck is stacked or not?

It seems to me that the premise of your initial question to this thread is assuming things you can't possibly know. The question is nonsensical by it's flawed premise.

There will believers from every tribe around the throne because that conclusion in Revelations is not just God's prediction, but his plan that he's working in the world.

 

[All about Grace]

Do you know of one calvinist who believes that there are elect infants who are not saved?

I know of Calvinsts who do not believe in elect infants. And sentimentality seems to cause others to abstain from this view even though they like to accuse non-Calvinists of having a "feelings-based" theology (how could a good loving God send people to Hell with no choice).

From what perspective? The perspective of 21st century North America? What about 2nd century? What about my Norwegian ancestors back then? Where will the greatest concentration of believers be in 100 years?

So now we are talking geographical and chronological election???

 

[All about Grace]

Originally posted by Andy T.:
AAG, please give us your answer to your question - why are many Christians located in certain geographical locations and not in others? I'm sincerely intersted in your thoughts.

I honestly don't try and explain it. But neither do I try and explain it within the confines of a human system such as Calvinism whose adherents often fail to acknowledge the gaps and weaknesses of their own system of trying to explain God. After all if Calvinism is essential to the gospel or if Christ was a Calvinist, then I am left with the duty of defending a system developed by a philosopher some 1500 years after Christ.

I think it does us all good to come to a place in life where we are able to say: there are certain things about God's sovereignty and human responsibility that can't be explained within the confines of a 5-point system.

I just find it ironic that those who claim to embrace and promote God's sovereignty the most are often the ones I find limiting God to their own system of thought .... self included.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by All about Grace:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Yawn. Straw man. Next it will be robots. Then "Calvin is a murderer." Can't you folks think of anything new?

Being wise in his own eyes, he became a fool.

Don't you know I am the one who is supposed to be arrogant and condescending?

I always find it amusing when people who rely so heavily upon a human system to explain an eternal God's redemptive work accuse someone else of being "wise in their own eyes." </font>[/QUOTE]All About Grace...
That is the total extent of what you can expect with that character. Completely useless. Better to deal with those who challenge you with reason and scripture and ignore this guy.

 

[Bill Brown]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by All about Grace:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Yawn. Straw man. Next it will be robots. Then "Calvin is a murderer." Can't you folks think of anything new?

Being wise in his own eyes, he became a fool.

Don't you know I am the one who is supposed to be arrogant and condescending?

I always find it amusing when people who rely so heavily upon a human system to explain an eternal God's redemptive work accuse someone else of being "wise in their own eyes." </font>[/QUOTE]All About Grace...
That is the total extent of what you can expect with that character. Completely useless. Better to deal with those who challenge you with reason and scripture and ignore this guy. </font>[/QUOTE]Tim - I mean it...there are some in here who start threads just to get a rise out of others. They are not interested in the truth. They just want to impress others based on the latest book they haven't even finished. I'm learning to just steer away from them altogether....Reformed and free-willers alike.

Of course...you're not one of them!

 

[Andy T.]

I think it does us all good to come to a place in life where we are able to say: there are certain things about God's sovereignty and human responsibility that can't be explained within the confines of a 5-point system.

And that's what my reply was from the get-go: I don't know.

 

[Andy T.]

I think it does us all good to come to a place in life where we are able to say: there are certain things about God's sovereignty and human responsibility that can't be explained within the confines of a 5-point system.

By the way, the Doctrines of Grace only speak to the "how" of salvation, not the "why". So your original question really doesn't deal with the 5-points anyways, which I tried to show early on that this is an issue for both C and A and everyone inbetween.

 

[All about Grace]

I really do know I just don't want to say ...

 

[russell55]

I know of Calvinsts who do not believe in elect infants.

What you mean, I suppose, is that you know Calvinists who don't believe that any infants who die are elect. All Calvinists believe in elect infants, since all the elect are elect before the foundation of the world. A Calvinist who believes that absolutely no infants who die are elect is certainly not common. Perhaps you should find them and ask them your question, because for the majority of us who do believe that God can elect, regenerate, and save infants your question is nonsensical.

So now we are talking geographical and chronological election???

Nope. We're talking about God choosing individual people for salvation, and then ensuring that they hear the gospel so that they will believe. We're talking about God determining the times and places where individual people will live. We're talking about God fulfilling his plan to have individual people from every single people group around the throne of grace by electing individual people from every single people group, and ensuring that those individual elect people hear the gospel by sending preachers to them at the right time.

Now, you answer my question instead of sidestepping it:

How would you or I know if the deck is stacked against some people groups? How would you or I know if, in the end, there will be certain people groups overrepresented among those saved?