Gethsemane

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

awoke them from their sleep, which was "for sorrow" by what was happening to Jesus.

They knew NOTHING that <<was happening to Jesus>>. They SLEPT! And they immediately fell asleep again after Jesus had woken them up, so that Jesus said, “Go on, sleep!”
Because their sleep was for alcoholic remorse. The whole night they behaved like drunk, noising and fighting over who is going to be chief in charge like Obama in the kingdom of their infatuation with self. They could not stay awake a few minutes, so had they overindulged in the wine at the table. They still were so drunk that they pulled the sword at the mob who could have overtaken them at will, disallowed Jesus’ soberness them not.

 

[One Baptism]

It wasn't still on his face. It fell from his face onto the ground.

Brother Gerhard Ebersoehn, not that I desire to belabour this point, but the physical laws of nature, even of men, wherein sweat occurs, the perspiration in such agony (like prolonged labour pangs may cause or injury), or even simple work, doesn't merely all roll from the face downward, but breaks out from the pores all over the head and pools upon the face and hair, until such is accumulated as to gain mass (increase of droplett size), and gravity and/or movement then takes effect (not to mention other factors, wind, rain, sunshine, the condition of the face, whether clean, shaven, bearded, dirty, etc) and as such also remains upon the brow, the cheeks, the upper lip, the hair (of head, beard, mustache, etc) in glittering sheen. Not all simply vacates the locality of the surface of the face even in the most heated/dry conditions. Jesus was in such agonies (in that midnight hour, the hour of the power of darkness (Luke 22:53), in the very damp and cool of the Garden) that the very blood vessels (capillaries) ruptured and broke through to the surface of the skin and came out through the pores (clinically called Hematidrosis - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hematidrosis ). It doesn't just suddenly vanish, or all roll from the face, even when great drops do fall (consider how much Jesus was sweating/perspiring and bleeding for us, for them to be "great drops"!), even with a wipe of a sleeve. Blood (because of its makeup) stains, and smears, and sticks, even when mixed with perspiration, which also has a stickiness to it since it is not mere water.

I would pray that you consider what the Scripture says more closely, and also to consider what Jesus was going through.

 

[One Baptism]

They knew NOTHING that <<was happening to Jesus>>. They SLEPT! And they immediately fell asleep again after Jesus had woken them up, so that Jesus said, “Go on, sleep!”
...

No brother Gerhard Ebersoehn, for the Scripture clearly states that Jesus awoke them intermittantly, so that they did have intermittant moments with Jesus between their sleeping "for sorrow", not drunkeness. This was directly cited for all, earlier:

And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow, - Luke 22:45​

First consider Matthews Account:

And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. - Matthew 26:37

Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. - Matthew 26:38

And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt]. - Matthew 26:39

And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? - Matthew 26:40

Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak. - Matthew 26:41

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. - Matthew 26:42

And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. - Matthew 26:43

And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. - Matthew 26:44

Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take [your] rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. - Matthew 26:45

Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me. - Matthew 26:46​

The statement by Jesus in Matthew 26:45 about "Sleep on now", is not speaking of physical rest, but of spiritual sleep. They were awake when the Judas came, for notice Jesus said, "behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners (vs 45) and "Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me" (vs 46)".

Jesus was not contradicting himself, by saying "Sleep on now" and then right after saying, "Rise, let us be going." The "Sleep on now" is speaking to their spiritual discernment. Jesus had foretold these things and that which was to come beforehand, on several occasions, yet it didn't take root in the heart, for Satan came and took the seeds away... It was only later that they remembered those things Jesus had said about all those events.

Marks account:

And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy; - Mark 14:33

And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch. - Mark 14:34

And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. - Mark 14:35

And he said, Abba, Father, all things [are] possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. - Mark 14:36

And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour? - Mark 14:37

Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly [is] ready, but the flesh [is] weak. - Mark 14:38

And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words. - Mark 14:39

And when he returned, he found them asleep again, (for their eyes were heavy,) neither wist they what to answer him. - Mark 14:40

And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take [your] rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. - Mark 14:41

Rise up, let us go; lo, he that betrayeth me is at hand. - Mark 14:42

And immediately, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of the twelve, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders. - Mark 14:43​

We thus see the same events. Notice again the "Sleep on now", and then right after, "Rise up, let us go", and "immediately, while he yet spake".

Notice also in both Matthew's and Mark's account reveal that the disciples saw Jesus awake at the first and saw Jesus, "began to be sorrowful and very heavy" (Matthew 26:37), "began to be sore amazed [terrified, astounded, etc (see Mark 16:5, "affrighted")], and to be very heavy" (Mark 14:33) and wherein Jesus said to them, "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death" (Matthew 26:38), "My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death" (Mark 14:34).

So this reveals further that the disciples, at seeing Jesus in such agony to begin with, were already being filled with "sorrow", and as such are found "sleeping for sorrow" (Luke 22:45). They saw Jesus, in the first, in intermittant awakening and questioning, and at the end, when blood/sweat had broken out upon him when He came to them at the last and awoke them just before being betrayed.

Luke's account:

And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him. - Luke 22:39

And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation. - Luke 22:40

And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, - Luke 22:41

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. - Luke 22:42

And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. - Luke 22:43

And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. - Luke 22:44

And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow, - Luke 22:45

And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. - Luke 22:46

And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him. - Luke 22:47​

John's account just jumps right from entering the Garden, to being betrayed in John 18.

 

[One Baptism]

...Because their sleep was for alcoholic remorse. The whole night they behaved like drunk, noising and fighting over who is going to be chief in charge like Obama in the kingdom of their infatuation with self. They could not stay awake a few minutes, so had they overindulged in the wine at the table. They still were so drunk that they pulled the sword at the mob who could have overtaken them at will, disallowed Jesus’ soberness them not.

Also, they could not have been drunken on alcoholic content, in the least, [1] for Jesus never drank alcohol, knowing the dire warnings of Scripture on it (demonstrable in another thread, not here, please be prepared in thorough study, as I have many, many proofs from the Scripture itself), [2] the chosen apostles never drank it, following Jesus and the Scriptures dire warnings on the matter and also the Passover Feast was never to have alcoholic content, and no leaven whatsoever therein.

Jesus used the words "fruit of the vine" (Matthew 26:29; Mark 14:25; Luke 22:18, see also 1 Corinthians 11:25-26, "blood" of Jesus is never corrupt/fermented/alcoholic), in connection with the words "new", which is the pure juice of the grape, or mixture of grape/water.

Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all. Isaiah 65:8​

So, that “new wine” which is "found in the cluster" [Isaiah 65:8], is the pure juice and “blood” of the grape, which yields “strength”, even all the strength of Christ Jesus [John 15:5; 2 Corinthians 12:9], treading the winepress alone [Isaiah 63:3], to give unto those who were without strength [Romans 5:6]:

Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape. Deuteronomy 32:14

Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength. Joel 2:22​

And this pure blood of the Grape, is meant for life, joy, rejoicing and gladness [Zechariah 10:7] as can be found at a wedding [John 2:1-11, 4:46] [which we will consider Cana, etc in a bit as necessary in another thread if so desired] or a blessed feast of God [Psalms 104:15; Ecclesiastes 9:7, etc]. They were symbols pointing unto Christ's own pure wedding and feast with His own Bride/people to come, as we shall see. It is also found as the very heart and symbol of the New and Everlasting Covenant [Hebrews 13:10], made in the midst of the True Passover [Matthew 26:17; Mark 14:1,12; Luke 22:1,7; 1 Corinthians 5:6-8]:

Matthew:

And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; Matthew 26:27

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matthew 26:28

But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. Matthew 26:29​

Mark:

And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. Mark 14:23

And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. Mark 14:24

Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God. Mark 14:25​

Luke:

And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: Luke 22:17

For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. Luke 22:18

Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. Luke 22:20​

Paul:

After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying,

This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 1 Corinthians 11:25

For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. 1 Corinthians 11:26​

Notice the words, over and over again, “new” and “blood” [1 John 5:7-8; 1 Peter 1:9; Revelation 1:5] and “fruit of the vine”. This wine of “the cup” was not fermented, but “pure” [1 John 3:3] and unleavened, the very holy “fruit” of the precious “vine” [Christ Jesus; John 15:1,5], even as God showed to Moses for the Passover and feast to follow, that no leaven, no fermentation, was to be in all the quarters at all [see also – Exodus 12:3-20,34,39; 13:3-7; 23:18; 34:18,24-25; Leviticus 2:11; 6:14-17; 10:12; 23:5-6; Numbers 9:11; 28:17; Deuteronomy 16:1-8; 2 Chronicles 8:13; 35:17; Ezra 6:20; Ezekiel 45:21; Acts 12:3; 20:6]:

Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven seen with thee in all thy quarters. - Exodus 13:7

Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning. Exodus 34:25​

For is it not written, that even a “little leaven” leavens the whole?:

Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 1 Corinthians 5:6

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. Galatians 5:9​

Therefore:

Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 1 Corinthians 5:7

Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 1 Corinthians 5:8​

For us, Christ Jesus is the unleavened bread of life [Exodus 16:15,31,33,35; Numbers 11:6-7,9; Deuteronomy 8:3,16; Joshua 5:12; Psalms 78:24; John 6:33,35,48-49,51,58; Hebrews 9:4; Revelation 2:17, etc] and He is our incorruptible inheritance, even as the manna was uncorrupted upon the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God and preserved forever and his blood holy, pure, undefiled, uncorrupted.

Having done thorough study on this topic, in both OT and NT, if you decide to contest this, please be prepared to answer the Scriptures, the Science, the Historical data in another thread. I will recommend you study prayerfully before taking it up - please brother.

Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. - Proverbs 20:1​

 

[One Baptism]

BobRyan must be clearly blind if he can't see any addition to scriptures in the 'best commentary on the gospels'

Hello [Brother?] vooks, before attacking brother BobRyan, and so in defense of the Scriptures, and in like manner for one who has clearly and deeply read the Scriptures to be able to portray such scenes with detail, accuracy and gravity, as has been given, perhaps you might be able to explain where Paul received the following information in the Old Testament Scripture:

Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. - 2 Timothy 3:8​

Or could you tell me where Jude found such information and knowledge directly cited in the OT Scripture?:

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. - Jude 1:9​

There are other such examples that are also given through "revelation" (Galatians 1:12) and/or a thorough "search[ing]" (Acts 17:11) of God's word which do not normally just 'jump out' all at once, for God's word has surface treasure, and deeply buried ore's of infinite value.

I pray we all may consider these things.

 

[Darrell C]

Here is something else to consider: Christ neither plead not to be crucified nor was He forsaken of the Father on the Cross.

Before rejecting these proposals I just ask that all give it some thought first and consider whether we can separate the unity of God and deny some very straight forward truths from both the Scriptures as well as explicit statement from the Lord Himself.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Here is something else to consider: Christ neither plead not to be crucified nor was He forsaken of the Father on the Cross.

Before rejecting these proposals I just ask that all give it some thought first and consider whether we can separate the unity of God and deny some very straight forward truths from both the Scriptures as well as explicit statement from the Lord Himself.


God bless.

Jesus seemed to Himself experience seperation from the father while on the Cross, as our Sin bearer, and He experienced that "Hell" on the Cross that sinners will forever...

 

[Darrell C]

Jesus seemed to Himself experience seperation from the father while on the Cross, as our Sin bearer, and He experienced that "Hell" on the Cross that sinners will forever...

First, I would ask where Christ suffers "Hell" on the Cross? Hell is currently uninhabited. At least to our knowledge. The first men that inhabit etrernql punishment are the Antichrist and the false prophet.

The belief the Christ was separated from the Father denies the Lord's statement...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+16%3A31-32&version=KJV

(Hope that works. Trying to figure out copy and paste on this thing (tablet))

...and, because Christ quotes the Psalmist. Can we really separate the Son from the Father? Think about that.

Some believe Christ went to Hell to pay our sins. Not the case. He died for our sins. Remember, the veil was His flesh, not Hell.

I hesitated stepping into this one because I knew I'd be limited on this tablet, but think of the point above. I'll have to supply verses later. Prefer just post them.

Another point would be that Christ came to die, and when Peter takes up the sword in the garden the Lord asks Shall I not drink this cup? How do we have Him then asking for it to pass away? Doesn't really make sense if you ask me. But if the plea is that it should pass as in being accomplished we maintain s harmonious and balanced interpretation.

Okay this is pretty rough, should raise a few points for discussion though.

I just have a hard time seeing God forsake...Himself.


God bless.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Jesus said, "Why have you NOT, watched with Me?"

It means the disciples did not care less; they did NOT watch with Jesus; they had NO sympathy with his anxiety.

They were Jesus' BIGGEST TEMPTATION, the disciples.

And their whole involvement in Jesus' SUFFERING in that night, was to tempt Him to "sorrow exceeding death". And to show and prove the UNWORTHINESS AND SELFISHNESS OF ALL HUMANS and Jesus' SOLE MERIT AND MERITORIOUSNESS in God's business for the salvation of TOTALLY DEPRAVED SINNERS.

Beautiful and masterly use of language change nothing of Gospel Truth.

Our salvation was and still is the exhibition of our bad characters OPPOSING God; not assisting Him.

Though I had the gift of the gab but received not God's FREE grace and love, I'd be but a tin with stones shaken for its noise. It's the only worth it has; its only USE.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Jesus' supposed <<separation from his Father>> was no separation as supposed. Jesus was talking WITH the Father. The Father never left Jesus one moment long. He gave his spirit into the hands of his Father THERE AND THEN!

Jesus suffered for no moment anything GOD IN FULL FELLOWSHIP OF FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT did not suffer.

Of course I do not understand it. Of course I cannot explain it.

Could I it won't be I who would be wrong BUT GOD. God is not wrong; I am. I NEVER am right; because God, is always right.

So you wise, well educated guys, write your beautiful prose. Fill more and more books already filling shelves from here right into heaven at the right hand of God Himself.

I shall exalt Jesus Christ there, and make --- or rather BE made the sole piece for his feet and the door step of his entrance. May that be my glory by God's grace.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

All these supposed impossible things for Jesus to have experienced or do were HIS POWER --- the Mystery of Godliness and Omnipotence— were his Divine FULFILMENT of the SCRIPTURES.

Mention one Jesus suffered that was not PROPHESIED?!

God who DIED --- it is just as impossible to the human mind as God who SUFFERED --- just as impossible as the God who TRIUMPHED. The Crucified God is just as possible or impossible as the Buried God or as the Incarnated Son of Man or as the RISEN Christ .

.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Jesus seemed to Himself experience seperation from the father while on the Cross, as our Sin bearer, and He experienced that "Hell" on the Cross that sinners will forever...

Yes!

And He experienced it not only IN the presence of God; He experienced it AS The Presence of God among us. Jesus’ suffering, was God, suffering.

 

[Darrell C]

Jesus' supposed <<separation from his Father>> was no separation as supposed. Jesus was talking WITH the Father. The Father never left Jesus one moment long. He gave his spirit into the hands of his Father THERE AND THEN!

Jesus suffered for no moment anything GOD IN FULL FELLOWSHIP OF FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT did not suffer.

Of course I do not understand it. Of course I cannot explain it.

Could I it won't be I who would be wrong BUT GOD. God is not wrong; I am. I NEVER am right; because God, is always right.

So you wise, well educated guys, write your beautiful prose. Fill more and more books already filling shelves from here right into heaven at the right hand of God Himself.

I shall exalt Jesus Christ there, and make --- or rather BE made the sole piece for his feet and the door step of his entrance. May that be my glory by God's grace.

I would disagree...I would agree you are right if this denies the Son was separated from the Father.

Not due to talking to Him but the fact it is an impossibility that God should cease to be God.


God bless.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I would disagree...I would agree you are right if this denies the Son was separated from the Father.

Not due to talking to Him but the fact it is an impossibility that God should cease to be God.


God bless.

Jesus never <<cease(d) to be God>>. For no moment. Just like He never ceased to be Man. For no moment.

My advice, Never even attempt to 'explain' it. BELIEVE IT!

 

[Darrell C]

Jesus never <<cease(d) to be God>>. For no moment. Just like He never ceased to be Man. For no moment.

My advice, Never even attempt to 'explain' it. BELIEVE IT!

Have to disagree...this is why the Lord gave us His Word, so we can understand and explain it to others.

I view the belief that the Son was separated from the Father on the Cross to suggest He ceased to be God. I reject that based on the belief it is impossible, even while veiled in human flesh...for God to cease to be God.

I would also suggest that while we do exercise faith, as we grow, that which we believe should be substantiated by the Word.


God bless.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Have to disagree...this is why the Lord gave us His Word, so we can understand and explain it to others.

I view the belief that the Son was separated from the Father on the Cross to suggest He ceased to be God. I reject that based on the belief it is impossible, even while veiled in human flesh...for God to cease to be God.

I would also suggest that while we do exercise faith, as we grow, that which we believe should be substantiated by the Word.


God bless.

No need to disagree.