Give God The Glory For ...

[TCGreek]

The problem is that calvinist theology (which is Biblical theology) leaves absolutely NO room for man to boast. zero.
Not even AFTER salvation.
There are many that are fine with being saved by grace but they appear to want to be able to be better than others by their good works afterwards.

Calvinism is a personal attack against them, even though we never mean for it to be.
The people who get the most offended are often those who see what the implications are:
You, though you may be saved are still a dirty, depraved sinner with NO GOOD WHATSOEVER in your own flesh, just like I am and every other calvinist on this board.

It isn't the calvinist that is atacking, it is the little boy saying "Momma, the emperor is naked!"

According to ol' Spurgeon, Calvinism is just a nickname for what the Scriptures teach on the matter of our salvation and sanctification.

If we don't think the likes of Calvin and Wesley are gifts to the church, then we should discard Eph 4:7-12. And BTW, it is God who position people in his church (1 Cor 12:27-29.

And I am thankful that God didn't invite us into his chambers, whether we are calvinists or arminians, as he appointed his servants.

 

[Allan]

==I don't keep up with who posts what in all the threads, I don't have that much time on my hands (I wish I did). Also I had nobody in mind in my reply, I was just making general comments. I think anyone who read what I said, without being defensive, would see that. Also my comments are based on pure experience. There are some people, I never said all, who will go into a hate-filled anti-Calvin rant even at the mere mention of election. I never said you, or anyone else on this board, was like that. I was making general comments.

Understood, though you do realize your 'general' statement was a responce to what I had stated previously in another thread. So I answered you after that fashion but as I said I better understand you comment direction now.

==My Bible tells me that all good gifts come from God (Jms 1:17). I believe God does send the church teachers/preachers for the good of the church (Matt 23:34). I would say that men like Calvin, Spurgeon, Wesley, etc, are gifts to the church in that sense. God has given gifted men to the church for the benefit of the church (to edify the body).

I do not dispute that all good gifts come from God and even to the Church. So I would agree with you as well in that sense.

==I would not disagree with that and I don't know anyone in this thread who has placed Calvin above those men.

Maybe you should go back and re-read post #13 and #16.

==Excuse me, but yes they do. I have seen it, I have run into it, I have read it. There are people who have a deep seated hatred for Calvin and Calvinism. If you don't think there are then you must not be paying attention to the various sermons/comments/debates on this issue.

If you will notice that I to was using a general statement when I stated :

...take a moment to realize the people don't 'hate' Calvinism per say...

a general statement ment to imply a group but not implicating everyone within the group to be of the same mindset.

==I hear this a lot mainly used against James White. However I am not sure that there is an "attitude" with the majority of Calvinist (no more than any other group anyway).

In truth there aren't many Calvinists making the same 'attitude' claim but I agree it is debatable, and doing so has no value.

I think the problem is that many non-Calvinists can't debate many Calvinists.

That to is debatable. Though I am likely to side with you on the issue. The Church as whole no longer 'teaches' how to properly study the scriptures, the doctrines they believes, and false teaching they reject. (cause it will offend some - I say GOOD!)

I have seen debates in which the non-Calvinist was just out matched (I don't know any other way to say that).

And I have seen it the other way around quite a few times as well. I can remember distinctly watching this during my college years. and some discussions I had with them. But I will admit I was not always the one on top. I remember very soundly getting pummeled a couple times. At I get it a time or to on debate boards. But it isn't about winning the argument for the sake a Doctrinal Champion but edifying your brother into maturity in Christ that they to might see those things Gods has revealed to you or them

Why is this? Personally I believe it is because the general teachings we know as "Calvinism" are Biblical and therefore trying to argue against them (not Calvin, Calvinists, or Calvinism) is very difficult.

That is a good theory but I doubt it. I believe it is because most believers are not properly trained, nor thoroughly equipped to give an answer for the Hope that lies with in them. They can not usually defend their beleifs because they have never really studied them.

==I am certainly glad you can read that into a post on a internet discussion forum. Mainly when you don't know the person who wrote the post. You have never met me in person, we have never spoken, you don't know the first thing about me. So how you can read an attitude into my posts is beyond me. In person nobody accuses me of that (O, well).

Let me help you here.
I DO know you. I know the Martin of BB. I don't have to have met you in person. I have read your personal writtings and opinions here. What you state here in print is what thousands of others know you as, regardless of if you don't talk about this stuff in person. They and I know the you that you portray here on the Internet via the BB. You can see your attitude through out your postings regarding what I believe are the biblical doctrines of the Responsibility of Man. (what you call free-will) and this one is no different. You are generally a good fellow here, but once you get into preaching your view, you become degrading, condesending, and ALMOST boastful at times regarding the presummed 'superiority of your view' other those not so inclined. However, I'm NOT stating this is all you do but that it is common in your posting with speaking of C/A.

I have no disdain for non-Calvinists. I use to be a non-Calvinist, my grandmother was a non-Calvinist before she went home,

So she converted to Calvinism just before she died, or is that the 'attitude' I was refering to?

On this forum I am just stating what I believe is true. I believe the teachings of Calvinism are on solid Biblical ground. I believe non-Calvinists are wrong (not unsaved, just wrong). I like the example of Wesley and Whitefield. Even though they disagreed in a most heated way about these issues they were still friends. Wesley even preached Whitefield's funeral.

Yes, but on this forum you also have a testimony that reflects you HERE, just as you have a testimony to those with whom you actually meet and speak with. I left the BB for a time because I was becoming to cross and ill-mannered toward my brothers. There is still 2 who have an axe to grind with me and love to try, but that is ok. I am about to step off again and just lurk for a time. But I want to address the couple of thread I have engaged.

I believe the teaching of Calvinism are not on solid biblical ground BECAUSE of my own studies. And yes, I have SERIOUSLY considered and studied it. I believe Calvinists are wrong (not unsaved, just wrong). But I too like the example of Wesley and Whitfield, but also Spurgeon and Moody. Some might even say Peter and Paul but I don't think I would go that far. :laugh:

I agree that you should not budge on what you believe unless God show you otherwise. But please show those of us who do not agree with your view of scirpture disrespect by talking down to us and how right or supposedly more biblical your view is over ours. With meekness and humbleness teach and exhort. You may find we will talk longer and listen closer as attitudes on BOTH sides fade in the light of brotherly Love.

But who am I to talk - I'm the village idiot. :thumbs: :laugh:

 

[Rippon]

Hi V.I. :laugh: You do acknowledge , do you not , that Calvinism teaches the responsibility of all people toward God ? Our accountability is not equivalent to free-will .

 

[TCGreek]

Hi V.I. :laugh: You do acknowledge , do you not , that Calvinism teaches the responsibility of all people toward God ? Our accountability is not equivalent to free-will .

"Free-will" is a misnomer for true bondage of the will. There is really no such thing as "free-will."

 

[IveyLeaguer]

In another thread someone thought a comment I made bordered on being idolatrous . I had said something along the lines of : "Give glory to God for His gift to the Church of John Calvin."

I have no idea whether or not you have made Calvinism an idol. But I am willing to suggest a few questions that may help you prayerfully examine yourself. Because that's the only way you will ever know for certain, to let the Holy Spirit show you.

1. Considering all the time you spend collectively in the things of God, how much of that time is spent on Calvinism? Is it an inordinate amount of time? Do you spend 80 or 90% (or whatever the number is) of that time thinking and working on the large percentage of the things of God that are NOT Calvinism?

2. Do you believe that Calvinism and God's Word are the same thing?

3. Do you have any reservation or hesitation in giving heartfelt glory to God for John Wesley?

4. Do you find yourself feeling satisfied that you have intellectually mastered soteriology in general and Calvinism specifically?

5. Do you find yourself evaluating other Christians by testing what they believe through the filter of Calvinism?

I had few more, but these 5 should be sufficient to get you going. God Bless.

raying:

 

[Rippon]

The question was raised by another who posed the idea that I came close to idolatry because I said something to the effect that I give God the glory for His gift of John Calvin to the Church . The subject is John Calvin , not Calvinism .

Since I think that Calvinism is the content of biblical teaching -- you bet that I spend a great deal of time dwelling on it . Calvinism , as I have said repeatedly , is a bit more full-orbed than a number of ill-informed detractors would have people to believe i.e. just the celebrated ( or notorious to many ) Five Points .

I do not idoize the Word of God . I love it for revealing Jesus Christ to me . I adore it because it gives me sacred information about the character of God and His dealings with us . I am spirtually renewed when I mediate on its pages with confidence that these are precious truths . I am enriched when I ponder that its promises , precepts and a plethora of other vital messages which give me strength and encouragement .

 

[IveyLeaguer]

I do not idolize the Word of God . I love it for revealing Jesus Christ to me . I adore it because it gives me sacred information about the character of God and His dealings with us . I am spirtually renewed when I mediate on its pages with confidence that these are precious truths . I am enriched when I ponder that its promises , precepts and a plethora of other vital messages which give me strength and encouragement .

I appreciate that very much. I know you are sincere or you wouldn't have posted the question in public.

Calvinism , as I have said repeatedly , is a bit more full-orbed than a number of ill-informed detractors would have people to believe i.e. just the celebrated (or notorious to many ) Five Points.

Yes, I understand that it is much broader than most realize.

... I think that Calvinism is the content of biblical teaching ...

I realize you have plenty of company here, but I sincerely believe this a very dangerous concept. I think the questions are applicable.

The subject is John Calvin, not Calvinism.

I appreciate that, but I don't see that the distinction really matters.

God Bless.

raying:

 

[Rippon]

Since I think that Calvinism is the content of biblical teaching -- you bet that I spend a great deal of time dwelling on it. Calvinism, as I have said repeatedly, is a bit more full-orbed than a number of ill-informed detractors would have people to believe i.e. just the celebrated ( or notorious to many ) Five Points.

Sometimes one has to not just establish a truth --but repeatedly do so for the benefit of the willfully untruthful.

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't know about anyone else, but would a calvinist be saying the same thing if the shoe was on the other foot? Is there anyone besides Jesus Christ who is a "gift" to the Church?

Well, the Lord Jesus stated that some of His gifts to the church were the Apsotles/prophets/pastors/teachers/evangelists, so would say that any in those group who taught the truths of the bible would be a gift to the body!

I would say Spurgeon, calvin, luther, Wesley, etc all were gifts from God, do not have to agree with all they said/wrote/did, as ONLY the Apsotles we have to fully agree with!