Given EQUALS draw - Jn. 6:44,65

[BobRyan]

Three times the square is said to be a rectangle.

But that is not enough for the Calvinist argument - for it must "insert" that all rectangles are squares. It must insert "the only ones that are drawn are those that come to Christ".

A key point in their argument - a key detail missing from the text.

Which leaves us with "I will draw ALL" the - unqualified - unlimited ALL that are DRAWN according to John - and unless you are universalist then you must admit that only some of them come to Christ. For no text says "All that are Drawn WILL come to Christ". But we do know that among those who are drawn are those who come to Christ.

I stand at the door and knock IF ANYONE hears my voice -- (This is the unqualified ALL aspect)
AND opens the door I WILL come in -- (this is the more narrow -- all squares are rectangles)
Rev 3:

John makes for a very poor Calvinist indeed.


MANY called - FEW chosen.

"I will DRAW ALL" John 12:32 - the unqualified ALL.

For "God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance". 2Pet 3

The Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" not just the Calvinist's arbitrarily selected "Few" of Matt 7.

For God "So loved the WORLD -- yes really!" John 3

God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD 1 John 4- yes really.

God gave His Son as "The atoning sacrifice for OUR sing and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the whole WORLD". 1John 2:2


in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him

That applies to ALL - the unqualified ALL of the entire world ]

Where in the immediate context of John 6 can you base that "all" in verses 37-39 means "ALL MANKIND without a single exception"? Please give the verse in John 6 that says this?

Where in John 3 can you find the subject of drawing and giving people to Christ stated? Verse please?

If you can't find either, then what exegetical basis do you have for making either statment???? Every cultists interprets scripture exactly as you are doing here - they use the very same methods - injecting into a context what the context says nothing about.

Furthermore, what is stated in the context repudiates your definition completely as the words "OF ALL" leaves out none included and it is "OF ALL" which are given that Christ says "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING." That is a flat denial that ANY "OF ALL" can be lost.

NO MAN can come to God without HIS drawing. That allows for no not even one Calvinist exception and downsize of "no man CAN'.

This is a negative stated rule that excludes all with one exception to that rule. However, you have turned it into a positive stated rule that includes all with no exceptions. You have reversed it to say the exact opposite of what it says and means.

The first "baby step" is to "notice" the unqualified ALL in the writing of John.

John 6:39 destroys this argument completely. Bob, what does "OF ALL" include? Does it include ALL MANKIND without a single exception? Or does it only refer to those "given" by the Father to the Son? Are you going to claim that ALL MANKIND without a single exception were "given" by the Father to the son??? If so, then "OF ALL which the Father hath given me, I SHALL LOSE NOTHING." Bob, will Christ lose ANY "OF ALL" the Father gave him?

Your "unqualified" all fails in verse John 6:39. It also fails in John 6:37. Is the "all" in John 6:37 qualified or unqualified? If you answer "unqualified" then you are forced to take the position that "ALL" means ALL MANKIND without a single exception has not only been given to Christ by the Father but ALL MANKIND without a single exception also comes to Christ. Is that right Bob???? If so, are you going to call Jesus a liar as he said there were some that will not come to him:

Jn. 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Bob says no exceptions but Christ claims there are exceptions! Who shall we believe? Christ or Bob?

So much for your imagined "unqualified" all that includes ALL MANKIND without a single exception.

And to notice that EVEN by the limited and somewhat eisgetical Calvinist standards the JOHN 6:44 "No man can come to me unless..." is a statement with a scope of ALL MANKIND without a single exception.

Unfortunately for you we have the full verse in the Bible preserved so you cannot cut it short and pervert it. The "him" that is drawn is the "him" that is raised meaning all drawn are all raised to etenal life. "EVERYONE" that has been taught and EVERYONE that has learned cometh to Christ. Hence, no exceptions.

Bob, you want to make "ALL" unqualified to mean no exceptions but then you want to make what Christ says about this "all" full of exceptions when Christ makes no exceptions. "OF ALL" given I SHALL LOSE NOTHING - no exceptions. ALL taught, learn, and come to Christ - no exceptions.

Which means that the Drawing of ALL "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:32 - is enabling the very thing that Calvinism says is disabled via the sinful nature.

[/QUOTE]

You are saying ALL mankind without exception are given ability to come but not "OF ALL" given do come when in fact Jesus says "OF ALL" given DO COME and ALL that come I WILL NOT CAST OUT and I SHALL LOSE NOTHING but raise each one given, drawn, coming to the resurrection of life.

The doctrine is spelled out in John 6 fully and completely in many verses while only referred to in one verse in John 12. John 12 must be interpreted by John 6 not apart from it or reversing it and making your own interpretation of John 12 the basis for interpreting John 6. This is cultic type of hermenutics. Of course SDA is a cult.

The choice to follow God.[/QUOTE]

Calvinist eisegesis involves a bait-and-switch where

1. "draw" (v. 44) is swapped out for "given" (v. 65)

A calvinist must of wrote John 6:44 and John 6:65 because that is exactly what we find written in each verse. We find "draw" in verse 44 and "given" in verse 65 and Jesus is saying that what he says in verse 65 is a repeat of what he said in verse 44!!! So, "draw" must equal "given" as it is Jesus that substitutes "given" for "draw" in verse 65.

2. ALL "given" DO COME TO CHRIST - v. 37 - so now imagine that all DRAWN also come to Christ

You don't have to "imagine that" because the text states it explicitly, clearly and precisely -

Jn. 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;

Shall we believe Bob's imaginary denial or Christ's words?

3. "OF ALL" given" NONE ARE LOST - v. 39 - so now imagine that all DRAWN are also not lost.

Again, we don't have to "imagine that" because it is actually spelled out clearly, explicitly and precisely in black and white by Christ:

Jn. 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Again, shall we beleive Christ or Bob's imaginary denial?

So much for your logic.

in Christ,

Bob[/QUOTE]

 

[The Biblicist]

For no text says "All that are Drawn WILL come to Christ". But we do know that among those who are drawn are those who come to Christ.

Bob willfully refuses to accept that Christ himself uses "given" in John 6:45 as a synonym for "draw" in verse 44.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


Furthermore, this given abiltiy (draw/given) provides for the very same result "come to me."

Second, the "him" in John 6:44a that is drawn is the same "him" in John 6:44b that is raised so "him" drawn EQUALS "him" raised that would be 1 out of 1 drawn is raised - 100%

Third, "ALL" do come that are "given" by the Father to the Son - Jn. 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Hence, "all" given EQUALS "all" that come or 1 out of 1 given come - 100%

Last, this is not true of Bob's definition of "all" and those that come! John 5:40 clearly denies that ALL Mankind without exception come to Christ:

And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

But the "all" Christ refers to in John 6:37-65 do come to Christ "without exception.






And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
I stand at the door and knock IF ANYONE hears my voice -- (This is the unqualified ALL aspect)
AND opens the door I WILL come in -- (this is the more narrow -- all squares are rectangles)
Rev 3:[/QUOTE]

He is addressing the whole church at Laodicea, every last member. He is addressing those who have "ears to ear". He is not addressing lost people. He is not addressing the world. Bob, all you have to do is read the verses before and after to clearly and plainly see this. Can't read?

MANY called - FEW chosen.

human preachers call everyone in their audiance to come to Christ but "few" respond because not ALL Mankind without exception is given to Christ by the Father. Not all are drawn.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ said "I WILL Draw ALL unto ME" John 12:32

But Biblicist counters with

human preachers call everyone in their audiance to come to Christ but "few" respond because not ALL Mankind without exception is given to Christ by the Father.

Not all are drawn.

Biblicist - your argument is in the form of an exact contradiction of scripture - which is always the danger of embracing Calvinism too closely.

ALL are drawn - but NOT ALL are given of the Father for NOT ALL choose to accept the Gospel. That choice being fully ENABLED by the supernatural "Drawing of ALL" some choose in favor of it - and others do not.

NOT all rectangles are squares.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In my argument I point to CHRIST's very non-Calvinist statement "I will draw ALL unto ME" John 12:32

And I point out that ALL are Drawn but NOT ALL choose to Come to Christ - for the drawing of God (the supernatural drawing of God) ENABLES that choice to come to Christ - yet NOT ALL make that choice. Many choose against it.

Notice how this detail gets "bent" in the quote below.

Jn. 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Bob says no exceptions but Christ claims there are exceptions! Who shall we believe? Christ or Bob?

So much for your imagined "unqualified" all that includes ALL MANKIND without a single exception.

The "Bend" is that I was supposedly (Iin the Calvinist wrench of the details) arguing that "ALL COME TO Christ".

And then the "Proof" that I am wrong is that - all do NOT come to Christ.

I guess if that sort of bend-and-wrench of the details is all you have...

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Christ said "I WILL Draw ALL unto ME" John 12:32

But Biblicist counters with




Biblicist - your argument is in the form of an exact contradiction of scripture - which is always the danger of embracing Calvinism too closely.

ALL are drawn - but NOT ALL are given of the Father for NOT ALL choose to accept the Gospel. That choice being fully ENABLED by the supernatural "Drawing of ALL" some choose in favor of it - and others do not.

NOT all rectangles are squares.

in Christ,

Bob

This is intentional deceit as my comment which you quoted was taken out of context as I did not make that comment in reference to John 12:32 and you know it. You know very well I made that comment in reference to the words "many are called but few are chosen." Dishonesty and disceit are your calling cards

 

[The Biblicist]

In my argument I point to CHRIST's very non-Calvinist statement "I will draw ALL unto ME" John 12:32

And I point out that ALL are Drawn but NOT ALL choose to Come to Christ - for the drawing of God (the supernatural drawing of God) ENABLES that choice to come to Christ - yet NOT ALL make that choice. Many choose against it.

Notice how this detail gets "bent" in the quote below.



The "Bend" is that I was supposedly (Iin the Calvinist wrench of the details) arguing that "ALL COME TO Christ".

And then the "Proof" that I am wrong is that - all do NOT come to Christ.

I guess if that sort of bend-and-wrench of the details is all you have...

in Christ,

Bob

Again you are being wholly dishonest. You repeatedly made the statement that "all" in John 6 is an "unqualified" all that refers to ALL Mankind without exception. I simply demonstrated how false your statement was as "all" in John 6:37 and 39 cannot be the "unqualified" "ALL mankind without exception" as that would demand that "ALL mankind without exception are given to the Father to come to the Son, and thus ALL mankind without exception shall come to the Son." John 5:40 proves this "unqualified" all is false in regard to the "all" of John 6:37-40.

Again, your calling cards are dishonesty and deception with scripture and with those who oppose you.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by The Biblicist


Jn. 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Bob says no exceptions but Christ claims there are exceptions! Who shall we believe? Christ or Bob?

So much for your imagined "unqualified" all that includes ALL MANKIND without a single exception.

The "Bend" is that I was supposedly (Iin the Calvinist wrench of the details) arguing that "ALL COME TO Christ".

And then the "Proof" that I am wrong is that - all do NOT come to Christ.

I guess if that sort of bend-and-wrench of the details is all you have...

Again you are being wholly dishonest.

If the Calvinist view of my sticking with "the details" is to be spun-around as "dishonest" - then so be it. I choose to "stick with the actual details" no matter the level of name-calling for doing so.

You repeatedly made the statement that "all" in John 6 is an "unqualified" all that refers to ALL Mankind without exception.

Indeed I did - and still do. That is one "detail" you are apparently leaving "unbent".

I applaud you in that choice.

I simply demonstrated how false your statement was as "all" in John 6:37 and 39 cannot be the "unqualified"

Only via "bait and switch" did you attempt to make your case. Slipping away from "All" and switching to those who "come to Christ" as if the ALL that are drawn are limited to "those who come to Christ" -- as if you had proven your wild claim that all rectangles are squares - since all squares are rectangles.

A wild claim on your part that has never been shown to be accurate.

"ALL mankind without exception" as that would demand that "ALL mankind without exception are given to the Father to come to the Son, and thus ALL mankind without exception shall come to the Son."

Indeed that is your wild claim -but when it cones time to prove your wild claim you have nothing saying that "the only ones DRAWN are those given". You insist that the text SHOULD have said it - but come up short of it - every time.

Thus we are asked to imagine it.

And thus you find yourself framing the exact contradiction to the words of Christ as HE said "I will DRAW ALL" your response is "ALL are NOT drawn".

It does not get any easier than that when it comes to "seeing a problem".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus said "I WILL Draw ALL unto Me" John 12:32.

He did not say "ALL DRAWN will come to me" - as much as the Calvinist argument would like to make that up.

Originally Posted by The Biblicist


human preachers call everyone in their audiance to come to Christ but "few" respond because not ALL Mankind without exception is given to Christ by the Father.

Not all are drawn.

to which I responded

Biblicist - your argument is in the form of an exact contradiction of scripture - which is always the danger of embracing Calvinism too closely.

ALL are drawn - but NOT ALL are given of the Father for NOT ALL choose to accept the Gospel. That choice being fully ENABLED by the supernatural "Drawing of ALL" some choose in favor of it - and others do not.

NOT all rectangles are squares.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

In my argument I point to CHRIST's very non-Calvinist statement "I will draw ALL unto ME" John 12:32

And I point out that ALL are Drawn but NOT ALL choose to Come to Christ - for the drawing of God (the supernatural drawing of God) ENABLES that choice to come to Christ - yet NOT ALL make that choice. Many choose against it.

You are wrong! You are wrong because in the John 6 context "draw" is synonymous with "given" (v. 44 compared to v. 65) and "ALL" that are given do in fact come to Christ (v. 37) and NONE given are lost (v. 39).

However, what I have said repeatedly above is too difficult for you to grasp. Perhaps I can use BIG letters next time if you can't grasp the little letters???

And then the "Proof" that I am wrong is that - all do NOT come to Christ.

Dont you ever get tired of intentionally perverting what I say????? Again, I said that in connection with your "unqualified" comment concerning "all" in John 6:37,39. The "ALL" in John 6:37,39 is QUALIFIED as NONE are lost that are given or come (v. 39) and "ALL" given do come (v. 37).

Do you need big letters to understand what I am saying? Stop jerking my words out of context!! However, I guess that is the only way you can stay in the conversation isn't it?

 

[The Biblicist]

Jesus said "I WILL Draw ALL unto Me" John 12:32.

He did not say "ALL DRAWN will come to me" - as much as the Calvinist argument would like to make that up.

to which I responded

The OP is on John 6:44,65 or can't you read? And in fact he does say that all drawn will come to me in John 6:44-45 as "him" that is drawn in verse 44 is the same "him" that is raised to life. The "all" who are taught are "EVERY ONE" that "cometh to me" in verse 45.

In fact, all drawn equals all given as verse 65 uses "given" for "draw" in verse 44 and ALL that are given do come (vv. 37,39).

Do I need to put this in big letters for you too????

John 6 defines and precedes John 12. The latter must be interpreted by the former not vice versa.

 

[TisMe]

Bob, thank you for your many posts on this subject. I am going over this in men's study group and your scriptural strength and logic, unwavering from the truth will help me immensely. I also appreciate the delivery and Christ like course you take and are committed to. God bless

 

[The Biblicist]

The OP is on John 6:44,65 or can't you read? And in fact he does say that all drawn will come to me in John 6:44-45 as "him" that is drawn in verse 44 is the same "him" that is raised to life. The "all" who are taught are "EVERY ONE" that "cometh to me" in verse 45.

In fact, all drawn equals all given as verse 65 uses "given" for "draw" in verse 44 and ALL that are given do come (vv. 37,39).

Do I need to put this in big letters for you too????

John 6 defines and precedes John 12. The latter must be interpreted by the former not vice versa.

Jn 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

You either believe Christ or you don't! He said that "OF ALL" that the Father gives him "NOTHING" shall be lost. "OF ALL" is qualified by the words "which he hath given me" and the Father has not given "ALL Mankind without exception" to Christ and some of "ALL Mankind without exception" shall be lost.

In addition the word "all" in John 6:37 is also qualified because "ALL" that the Father gives actually "shall come to me" and "ALL Mankind without exception" do not come to Christ as John 5:40 proves.

Now this text says nothing about CALLING. However, Bob and his friends want to force it into this context. We all know that there is a difference between when the human preacher calls the lost to come to Christ that many do not come. However, John 6:37-39 is not talking about what a human preacher does but what the Father and the Son do. This text is not talking about the power of the will of those being given, but the power of the Son carrying out the will of the Father in making sure "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING."

Now none of our opponents can respond rationally, so some do not respond at all but act as a cheering section for ignorance while the others respond irrationally. However, it really does not matter how they respond or if the respond at all because it does not change the words of the Lord at all.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Jn 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

You either believe Christ or you don't! He said that "OF ALL" that the Father gives him "NOTHING" shall be lost. "OF ALL" is qualified by the words "which he hath given me" and the Father has not given "ALL Mankind without exception" to Christ and some of "ALL Mankind without exception" shall be lost.

In addition the word "all" in John 6:37 is also qualified because "ALL" that the Father gives actually "shall come to me" and "ALL Mankind without exception" do not come to Christ as John 5:40 proves.

Now this text says nothing about CALLING. However, Bob and his friends want to force it into this context. We all know that there is a difference between when the human preacher calls the lost to come to Christ that many do not come. However, John 6:37-39 is not talking about what a human preacher does but what the Father and the Son do. This text is not talking about the power of the will of those being given, but the power of the Son carrying out the will of the Father in making sure "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING."

Now none of our opponents can respond rationally, so some do not respond at all but act as a cheering section for ignorance while the others respond irrationally. However, it really does not matter how they respond or if the respond at all because it does not change the words of the Lord at all.

Often the reason you are not responded to is because of the manner in which you post.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, thank you for your many posts on this subject. I am going over this in men's study group and your scriptural strength and logic, unwavering from the truth will help me immensely. I also appreciate the delivery and Christ like course you take and are committed to. God bless

Thank you for that.

I think each of the arguments has their own line of reasoning - but when it ends up in a direct contradiction of a plain statement of Christ - then that should be a huge red flag.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Jn 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

You either believe Christ or you don't! He said that "OF ALL" that the Father gives him

That is "obviously" a "qualified all" -- "Of all THAT the Father has given".

As we both know - no one here doubts that ALL squares are rectangles. Or that ALL squares have 4 equal sides.

What is doubted -- and indeed flatly denied that "ALL DRAWN are limited to only that FEW of Matt 7 that are on the narrow road - that FEW that are GIVEN" - instead of John's the UNQUALIFIED all of John 12:32 "I will draw ALL unto Me".

The difference between Calvinism and the Bible can be stated this way "God so loved the WORLD -- yes really".

In addition the word "all" in John 6:37 is also qualified because "ALL" that the Father gives actually "shall come to me"

Sadly for the Calvinist POV - John 6:37 does not say "ALL that are drawn are limited to those who are given of the Father". Rather "all that are GIVEN come to me". How much more "Accurate" it would have been had your thread been titled "ALL given are all that come to Me".


John 6:44 and John 3:16, John 12:32 and John 1:7-9 contain not a single qualifier for "WORLD" and for "ALL". and for "EVERY".

So the Calvinist argument carefully avoids mention of them except to downsize them.


But in the case of those "given" we do see tons of qualifiers - here the Calvinist argument loves to dwell. And the focus is always "see -- all squares ARE rectangles -- keep noticing that and then suppose that all rectangles are squares without noticing that this is not the actual case".

And of course that is when their argument fails.

There is no objection to the explicitly qualified examples that you keep harping on. The problem for your argument is the unqualified ALL for Drawn and for God so Loved and for Christ being the light of the world that enlightens EVERY man and for God is not willing for ANY to perish etc.

The verses that you only deal with - to down size.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus said "I WILL Draw ALL unto Me" John 12:32.

He did not say "ALL DRAWN will come to me" - as much as the Calvinist argument would like to make that up.

:

Originally Posted by The Biblicist


human preachers call everyone in their audiance to come to Christ but "few" respond because not ALL Mankind without exception is given to Christ by the Father.

Not all are drawn.

to which I responded

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan

Biblicist - your argument is in the form of an exact contradiction of scripture - which is always the danger of embracing Calvinism too closely.

ALL are drawn - but NOT ALL are given of the Father for NOT ALL choose to accept the Gospel. That choice being fully ENABLED by the supernatural "Drawing of ALL" some choose in favor of it - and others do not.

NOT all rectangles are squares.

The OP is on John 6:44,65 or can't you read?

John 6:44 is a wonderful place to find a text that does NOT Say "the ALL that are DRAWN are LIMITED to just those who come to me or just those given to me".

I think we both know that.

And in fact he does say that all drawn will come to me in John 6:44-45

We have only YOU as the source of such a statement about all DRAWN - thus your comment is not in quotes.

In vs 44 "No man can come to me EXCEPT" is applicable TO ALL - the unqualified ALL even by Calvinist standards. For even Calvinists do not argue that "SOME people come to Christ without being drawn".

So we start off in Vs 44 -with NO exceptions.

Then Christ narrows the scope to those who "come to me". Saying that those who are both drawn and that come to him - are to be raised up.

And thus vs 45 is very qualified of JUST those who come to Christ and were drawn by God.


44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


Thus ALL the squares are indeed rectangles.

All those raised up, all those taught of God, all those that come to Christ - WERE DRAWN.

But Christ says that BEYOND that "I will draw ALL unto Me" John 12:32 -- even though we know that NOT ALL drawn will come to Hiim.

There is no text in all of scripture saying "ALL DRAWN will come to ME".

Rather "MANY are called - FEW are chosen".

The point remains. We have apparently an Arminian text when it comes to scripture. Calvin himself noted this I believe.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

That is "obviously" a "qualified all" -- "Of all THAT the Father has given".

As we both know - no one here doubts that ALL squares are rectangles. Or that ALL squares have 4 equal sides.

What is doubted -- and indeed flatly denied that "ALL DRAWN are limited to only that FEW of Matt 7 that are on the narrow road - that FEW that are GIVEN" - instead of John's the UNQUALIFIED all of John 12:32 "I will draw ALL unto Me".

The problem is your method of interpretation. You want to jump from one text to another text and read them back into this text. That method can make a text mean whatever you want it to mean and that is precisely what you are doing. If I approached scripture like you are doing, no one could ever prove my view of any text is wrong because I would just jump to another text and read it into that text to defend my view. That is what you are doing. You are not first doing an expository treatment by the IMMEDIATE CONTEXT.

So as long as you do this jumping jack method of Bible interpretation while completely ignoring the immediate context there is no hope for any real serious discussion of any text of the Bible with you.

However, if we do it properly, let each context define its text first, then go to Matthew 7 or John 12 and do the same thing with those texts in their context then your position falls like domino's and your error is exposed. However, you will not follow a contextual based interpretation method and so there is no hope of real discussion between us.

 

[The Biblicist]

Jesus said "I WILL Draw ALL unto Me" John 12:32.

He did not say "ALL DRAWN will come to me" - as much as the Calvinist argument would like to make that up.

On the surface this argument by Bob sounds reasonable IF you simply ignore the immedate context.

Bob does not want to establish the meaning of ANY TEXT by its CONTEXT. He wants to go OUTSIDE OF THE CONTEXT and find his proof texts, which he does not establish their meaning by their context either, and then take them and read them into this context.

The problem is that he defines NO TEXT by its context but simply uses it because it superficially suits his purpose.

Now consider his statement above "He did not say 'ALL DRAWN will come to me"! That is only true if "draw" does not mean "given" in this immediate context! However, the truth is that "given" is substituted by Jesus for "draw" in this context and I have provided the absolute proof in v 65 WHICH HE HAS NEVER ADDRESSED! Why? Because he cannot address it honestly without giving up this superficial argument. So contextually, his denial is false and he knows its false but continues to perpetuate his falsehood. He furthers his falsehood by injecting into the John 6 context his presumptuous explanation of John 12:32 which is contrary both to the previous explanation in John 6 and contrary to the grammar and context of John 12. Hence, he jumps to Matthew 7 and makes another presumptuous explanation that has no contextual basis in Matthew 7 when the context there is examined. And so this jump and hop game he plays has no end and there is no way to deal with this kind of methodology because it always is based upon presumption that is never established by the context of any text he chooses to use.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus said "I WILL Draw ALL unto Me" John 12:32.

He did not say "ALL DRAWN will come to me" - as much as the Calvinist argument would like to make that up.

Quote:
:

Originally Posted by The Biblicist


human preachers call everyone in their audiance to come to Christ but "few" respond because not ALL Mankind without exception is given to Christ by the Father.

Not all are drawn.

to which I responded

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan

Biblicist - your argument is in the form of an exact contradiction of scripture - which is always the danger of embracing Calvinism too closely.

On the surface this argument by Bob sounds reasonable IF you simply ignore the immedate context.

No doubt there is an any-ol-excuse-will-do way to downsize John 12:32.

But if we contrast that method to actual "real life" qualifiers as the one you raise with John 6:37

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Here we see that the Bible "Qualifies" the All - as "All that the Father giveth".

Now we contrast that with an "unqualified" - ALL example.

John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" not "I will draw all that the father giveth unto me" as Calvinism wished the text had said.

The difference between Calvinism and the Bible can be stated this way "God so loved the WORLD - yes really"

Bob does not want to establish the meaning of ANY TEXT by its CONTEXT.

Code in this case for "Bob does not want to downsize any promise in scripture by looking for some excuse to do so - some place else, in service to Calvinism".

Now lets watch the word-game "played" to try and downsize John 12:32. It is as difficult to see through as the Calvinist argument appears to have at first imagined.

Now consider his statement above "He did not say 'ALL DRAWN will come to me"! That is only true if "draw" does not mean "given" in this immediate context! However, the truth is that "given" is substituted by Jesus for "draw"

Not in John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL unto ME" is never said by Christ to mean "When I say DRAW ALL I really just mean I will draw ONLY thosel that are GIVEN unto me and no one else". Not even one text such as that in all of scripture. Let alone the entire book of the Gospel of John or in John 12, no not even in John 6.

in this context and I have provided the absolute proof in v 65 WHICH HE HAS NEVER ADDRESSED! Why?

Part of that statement is true - I have not addressed vs 65.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

because it is simply the same thing that we find in vs 44 which I have addressed repeatedly

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

In vs 44 the point is made that NNE CAN come to Christ (and that embraces ALL of mankind - no exceptions - - even by Calvinist standards) unless they are DRAWN.

And vs 65 says that it must be "GIVEN TO HIM" by the Father ( HIM - the one drawn) to come to Christ. What is "GIVEN HIM" in the case of vs 65 is that which is being given to the LOST - the one who is being drawn.

We cannot "bait and switch" this text so that what is given to CHRIST - is that which is given to THE LOST.

To the LOST is given the supernatural work of God in "Drawing ALL".

God is not "Drawing Christ" to Himself.

But to Christ "is given" those who are drawn AND who choose to come to Him.

Context is everything -- as it turns out.:godisgood:

My point in the other statements of John pointing to the "unqualified ALL" scope of Christ's Gospel - is to show that your uphill task of having to downsize text after text does not end with John 3:16 or John 12:32.

in Christ,

Bob