Given, Granted or Allowed?

[Darrell C]

If God hardens a person's heart, he does not "allow" the person to believe. Thus to allow or permit is clearly the contextual meaning of the word in John 6:65.

I would point out that the hardening that takes place can probably be attributed to God's efforts. Consider Pharaoh: it was God's commands that resulted in the hardened heart. So His efforts come before the hardening in that case. This is a reasonable conclusion in general, because one cannot reject the Gospel prior to God's enlightenment.

Stephen makes a general statement concerning the "fathers," that they always resisted the Holy Ghost:

Acts 7:51
King James Version

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

It is after He has sought to enlighten men that He brings about conditions where they cannot believe. An example would be,


2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
King James Version

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Before placing too much emphasis on "believed not," take note they did not receive the love of the truth. That is why they were not saved, rather than not believing. Being unbelievers is the inevitable conclusion for those who receive not the love of the truth, or, as Peter puts it ...

2 Peter 2:21
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

There is no hardening of hearts prior to God's ministry. There is no faith, no belief, no repentance.



God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

This interpretation is precluded by verse after verse, such as "your faith" has saved you.

Could you provide a quote for "your faith has saved you?"

I can only recall this phrase spoken of by the Lord, and this precedes regeneration, so it cannot be used to justify the works of man as contributing to salvation.


God bless.

 

[Van]

Could you provide a quote for "your faith has saved you?"

I can only recall this phrase spoken of by the Lord, and this precedes regeneration, so it cannot be used to justify the works of man as contributing to salvation.
God bless.

Yes, the lost do come to faith before they are transferred into Christ where they are then regenerated, made alive spiritually.

And, a lost person coming to truth in Christ does NOT "contribute to salvation." Once again you imply misrepresentations of the biblical view. Recall Romans 9:16?

The post about "your faith" is it is the person's faith, not a faith instilled by "irresistible grace." Please address the issue and stop deflection efforts.

 

[Van]

I would point out that the hardening that takes place can probably be attributed to God's efforts. SNIP
.

Hardening occurs two ways in scripture, Matthew 13 addresses people who are like "Soil #1" you have hardened their hearts with the practice of sin and God hardening the heart or hearts as in Romans 11.

If God does not "disallow" a person to believe (by God hardening their heart), then they are allowed by God to believe.

So Jesus added, "Because of this I told you that no one can trust in Me unless the Father has allowed him to believe.
This truth seems so simple, if God does not disallow a person to believe by hardening their heart, then God has "allowed" the person to believe. This does not mean God has enabled or caused a person to believe. That would be nonsense.
​

 

[Darrell C]

How does anything in this response address ...


Could you provide a quote for "your faith has saved you?"

I can only recall this phrase spoken of by the Lord, and this precedes regeneration, so it cannot be used to justify the works of man as contributing to salvation.
God bless.

I'm still waiting.

Yes, the lost do come to faith before they are transferred into Christ where they are then regenerated, made alive spiritually.

Great. And ...?

I think the public record will show I have been fairly consistent in attributing repentance, belief, and faith to the Ministry of the Comforter. But, where we see a subsequent regeneration in association with those elements, this you will have trouble trying to justify.

Consider believers' baptism: when a person is baptized, they get wet at the same time. That is how I view regeneration. These elements are concurrent.

So where do we see men repenting, believing, and having faith so they can be regenerate? Where do we see the opposite scenario? Where do we see men are regenerated so they can have faith, or in other words, so they can then be saved? All you have to do is present the Scripture.

And, a lost person coming to truth in Christ does NOT "contribute to salvation." Once again you imply misrepresentations of the biblical view. Recall Romans 9:16?

I agree. God is wholly Sovereign in salvation.

Remember ...

Acts 11 NASB

18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has also granted to the Gentiles the repentance that leads to life.”

Does repentance precede belief and faith?

The post about "your faith" is it is the person's faith, not a faith instilled by "irresistible grace." Please address the issue and stop deflection efforts.

As I have said, I view faith as having a God-ward and a Man-ward aspect. While your faith in God remains a constant, how you express and live your faith varies.

Do you claim that your faith is no stronger now than the day you professed faith in Christ? Understanding God's Word does not strengthen our faith?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hardening occurs two ways in scripture, Matthew 13 addresses people who are like "Soil #1" you have hardened their hearts with the practice of sin and God hardening the heart or hearts as in Romans 11.

I would throw in people's hearts can be hardened by poor commentary.

If God does not "disallow" a person to believe (by God hardening their heart), then they are allowed by God to believe.

No reason to draw that conclusion.

And the primary issue goes back to the fact that no man or woman can believe within their natural condition. To justify your position, we would have to conclude that everyone from a small child believes because God has not hardened their hearts.

So Jesus added, "Because of this I told you that no one can trust in Me unless the Father has allowed him to believe.

Would you mind attaching chapter and verse and the translation?

Regardless, this is the very point I have been making: no natural man or woman has the ability to believe (in a salvific context) apart from the Ministry of God in their hearts. He is the One that "allows," because He is actively opening their eyes to His truth.

This truth seems so simple, if God does not disallow a person to believe by hardening their heart, then God has "allowed" the person to believe.

And again we disagree on this: I don't view it as God hardening someone's heart. They harden their own hearts. There's a difference between that and God giving strong delusion that one might believe a lie. This is God allowing the unbeliever to continue to bring judgment on him/herself, rather than God being charged as responsible for their unbelief/disobedience.

But I'll be glad to look at your basis in Scripture for such a view. Please do not snip up the quotations, should you choose to offer any up.

This does not mean God has enabled or caused a person to believe. That would be nonsense.

What is nonsense is the poor attempt at justifying your views. This post hosts a number of absurdities.

This one ...

If God does not "disallow" a person to believe (by God hardening their heart), then they are allowed by God to believe.

... is probably the worst.

Does God "disallow" the natural man from receiving the spiritual things of God? Does God make them view His truths as foolishness? Or is that something inherent in man's nature?

You seem to be back and forth here.


God bless.

 

[Van]

I would throw in people's hearts can be hardened by poor commentary.

SNIP

Hardening occurs two ways in scripture, Matthew 13 addresses people who are like "Soil #1" you have hardened their hearts with the practice of sin and God hardening the heart or hearts as in Romans 11.

If God does not "disallow" a person to believe (by God hardening their heart), then they are allowed by God to believe.

So Jesus added, "Because of this I told you that no one can trust in Me unless the Father has allowed him to believe. [interpretative translation of John 6:65]​

This truth seems so simple, if God does not disallow a person to believe by hardening their heart, then God has "allowed" the person to believe. This does not mean God has enabled or caused a person to believe. That would be nonsense.

 

[Darrell C]

So Jesus added, "Because of this I told you that no one can trust in Me unless the Father has [SNIP] him to believe. [interpretative translation of John 6:65]

Why not stick with the actual meaning of the words we are given? Instead of replacing them?

This truth seems so simple, if God does not disallow a person to believe by hardening their heart, then God has "allowed" the person to believe. This does not mean God has enabled or caused a person to believe. That would be nonsense.

I wonder if you would replace this word in the following verses:

Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give G1325 thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give G1325 her a writing of divorcement:

From the same chapter:

Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give G1325 is my flesh, which I will give G1325 for the life of the world.


I don't see "allow" given as a biblical usage for this word. While I would not conclude that as dogmatic, it is apparent that God gives men the ability to believe, as seen in your very own proof text.

That would qualify as enabling to me. But then, you probably have a better pair of scissors than I do.




God bless.

 

[kyredneck]

Matthew 13 addresses people who are like "Soil #1" you have hardened their hearts with the practice of sin

Soil #1:
4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the birds came and devoured them: Mt 13

Christ's explanation of soil #1:
18 Hear then ye the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the evil one, and snatcheth away that which hath been sown in his heart. This is he that was sown by the way side. Mt 13

Correlates with:
4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them. 2 Cor 4

God hardening the heart or hearts as in Romans 11.

Romans 11:
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.
7 What then? that which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened:

Correlates with:
6 Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4

 

[Van]

Why not stick with the actual meaning of the words we are given? Instead of replacing them? SNIP


God bless.

So Jesus added, "Because of this I told you that no one can trust in Me unless the Father has allowed him to believe. [interpretative translation of John 6:65]

Here we have the baseless claim the "didomi" (G1325) does not have "allowed" within its semantic range of meanings. However since every English translation of the New Testament renders the word in one or more of its usages as "allow" or "permit" or "grant" such as assertion is not only wrong, it is ludicrous.

Contextually the idea is if God hardens a person's heart, they are not "allowed" to believe, but if God does not harden the person's heart, then God allows them to believe if the opportunity arises. Judas was not allowed to believe, as he was chosen to be the "betrayer."

 

[Van]

Luke 8:12 (NLT)
The seeds that fell on the footpath represent those who hear the message, only to have the devil come and take it away from their hearts and prevent them from believing and being saved.

What can be learn from the descriptions found in Matthew 13, Mark 4, and Luke 8?

Soil number 1 hears the gospel, but does not understand the message. Why not? The "devil" takes it away somehow, thus preventing the person from believing and being saved. So had the "devil" not interfered, they had the spiritual ability to understand the spiritual milk of the gospel and the ability to believe in it such that God would choose to save them. Totally annihilating the Calvinist doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability.

Mathew 13:19 (NLT)
The seed that fell on the footpath represents those who hear the message about the Kingdom and don’t understand it. Then the evil one comes and snatches away the seed that was planted in their hearts.

Here we see once again upon hearing the gospel, these "soil #1" folks do not understand it. This seems to be before the message is somehow "taken away." Why did these folks, not understand while soils 2,3 and 4 did understand. How had their hearts been hardened, meaning how did they lose their ability to understand the gospel?

Can we attribute to the devil the affects of the practice of sin which result in the hardening of our own hearts. Yes! Recall how Satan deceived Eve such that she offered the forbidden fruit to Adam. Sin does not come to us saying do this because it will bring suffering to you and your loved ones. No, it says, do this it will be good for you. And the result of the practice of sin is our hardening our own hearts such that we have difficulty in even understanding the requirements of the gospel.

 

[kyredneck]

Judas was not allowed to believe, as he was chosen to be the "betrayer."

It was impossible for Judas to believe. John 8:43-47
Judas was a serpent John 6:70
Who collaborated with other serpents to bring about the fulfillment of Genesis 3:15
Christ chose him so that the scriptures would be fulfilled John 13:18; Psalms 41:9

 

[kyredneck]

Totally annihilating the Calvinist doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability.

ROFguffawing. What an imagination you have....

 

[Van]

2 Corinthians 4:3-4

If the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only from people who are perishing. Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.​

The extent or scope of the group of people in view as "people who are perishing" is vague. From one viewpoint, every lost person is "perishing" as they are already condemned for unbelief. But the idea of "only from" a group of people clearly indicates other lost people have not been blinded. Certainly all those "Soil #1" people of Matthew 13 are part of the group that has been blinded by Satan through the means of the deceitfulness of sin.

 

[Van]

ROFguffawing. What an imagination you have....

This is the sum and substance of Calvinists, deny the obvious.

 

[Van]

So Jesus added, "Because of this I told you that no one can trust in Me unless the Father has allowed him to believe. [interpretative translation of John 6:65]

This truth seems so simple, if God does not disallow a person to believe by hardening their heart, then God has "allowed" the person to believe. This does not mean God has enabled or caused a person to believe. That would be nonsense.

Contextually the idea is if God hardens a person's heart, they are not "allowed" to believe, but if God does not harden the person's heart, then God allows them to believe if the opportunity arises. Judas was not allowed to believe, as he was chosen to be the "betrayer."

 

[Darrell C]

So Jesus added, "Because of this I told you that no one can trust in Me unless the Father has allowed him to believe. [interpretative translation of John 6:65]


Here we have the baseless claim the "didomi" (G1325) does not have "allowed" within its semantic range of meanings.

The problem I have with this is that, while I don't argue God "allowed" them, the intent in the verse is better rendered with a word or words that are consistent with biblical usage. Thus, we see God giving someone this ability, as opposed to allowing men to work with an ability Scripture denies they have.

Use "allow" in some of the verses I posted and see how much sense they make.

However since every English translation of the New Testament renders the word in one or more of its usages as "allow" or "permit" or "grant" such as assertion is not only wrong, it is ludicrous.

And translations are what we base our conclusions on.

Okay.

Contextually the idea is if God hardens a person's heart, they are not "allowed" to believe,

Sorry, but this is imposed into the text by yourself. Not only that, we can examine everyone who ends up with a hardened heart and see that before that heart was hardened, they were introduced to the will of God.

You are charging God with making it impossible for men to be obedient to His will, and Scripture does not teach this. God will justly judge men based on their rejection of His will. It is one of the most basic teachings we have in Scripture.

but if God does not harden the person's heart, then God allows them to believe if the opportunity arises.

The conclusion one believes because their heart hasn't been hardened by God is astounding.

Judas was not allowed to believe, as he was chosen to be the "betrayer."

Judas chose not to believe. He rejected the "words of life" of his own volition. The fact this was prophesied does not negate his culpability.

God always reveals His truth before men make a decision. Men are incapable of going out, beating the bushes, and stumbling across the truth. Trying to make natural man seeking God not only contradicts the clear statement of Scripture (Romans 3:10-12), it isn't even reasonable enough for a serious Bible Student to consider.

The answer lies in understand the revelation of the Gospel Mystery, placing it in its proper time-frame (this Age), and Who it is that does the unveiling (God). This allows us to place all teachings in a proper context. We wouldn't have so much confusion about the salvation and justification of Old Testament Saints versus New.


God bless.

 

[Van]

The problem I have with this is that, while I don't argue God "allowed" them, the intent in the verse is better rendered with a word or words that are consistent with biblical usage. Thus, we see God giving someone this ability, as opposed to allowing men to work with an ability Scripture denies they have. SNIP

The opposite is true, God hardens hearts, not softens hearts. God takes away what we fail to utilize.

No verse or passage says or suggesting God giving someone the ability to seek God or believe in Christ via irresistible grace. That is a pure fiction.

Anyone can conclude G1325 has "allow or permit or grant" within its historically recognized range of meanings, based on the universal choice of those translation choices by all English translations (or at least the 60 or so I reviewed.)

Did I say "allow or permit or grant" was the only meaning of G1325? Nope, so to demonstrate the word has within its range of meanings "give" or bestow is a false argument, the old prove "A" and claim "B" has been proven.

God gives us things we are gives us what we are unable to obtain with our innate ability, such as salvation from the wrath of God, but that in no way demonstrates that the lost are all unable to believe. God would not need to harden hearts if the lost were innately unable. We could not harden our own hearts with the deceitfulness of sin if they were already hardened by the consequence of the Fall.

Of course people can hear the gospel and understand the gospel and reject or not fully accept the gospel. To claim my view is otherwise is just to fabricate yet another strawman argument to hide reality.

Finally the claim Judas was not allowed to actually believe in Jesus is clearly the contextual message of John 6:64-64. To claim verse 64 does not indicate Judas was among those who did not believe is nonsense. Likewise to claim Judas was not chosen to be the "betrayer" is nonsense. Thus Judas's heart was hardened such that God's predetermined plan would not be thwarted.

None of this precludes that Judas had hardened or was in the process of hardening his own heart with the practice of sin when he was chosen. That is not at issue. The issue is God did not allow Judas to believe because he had been chosen to fulfill the "betrayer" prophecy.

 

[Van]

Hardening occurs two ways in scripture, Matthew 13 addresses people who are like "Soil #1" who have hardened their hearts with the practice of sin and God hardening the heart or hearts of people as in Romans 11.

If God does not "disallow" a person to believe (by God hardening their heart), then they are allowed by God to believe.

So Jesus added, "Because of this I told you that no one can trust in Me unless the Father has allowed him to believe.

This truth seems so simple, if God does not disallow a person to believe by hardening their heart, then God has "allowed" the person to believe. This does not mean God has enabled or caused a person to believe. That would be nonsense.

Pay no attention to those claiming God must "enable" the lost to believe because of Total Spiritual Inability, that claim is a complete fiction, as the lost have the spiritual ability to understand spiritual milk but not spiritual solid food, see 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Pay no attention to those claiming God must "enable" the lost to believe because of Total Spiritual Inability, that claim is a complete fiction, as the lost have the spiritual ability to understand spiritual milk but not spiritual solid food, see 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

So you believe the Corinthian Christians were 'lost,' do you? Read 1 Corinthians 1:1-9.