Giving by the Father - Jn. 6:37-65

[The Biblicist]

The words "cometh to me" in John 6 means "come in faith" or "partaking by faith" where in the act of the will occurs. This is made abundantly clear in John 6:35-36 and here are the indisputable facts:

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.


1. John 6:1-51 is all about Christ as the "bread of life" that must be partaken to have eternal life. No LIQUID or DRINK is mentioned in these verses at all. Drinking is not mentioned until after John 6:51 where the "blood" of Christ is brought into the context as something to drink.

2. Eating this bread for eternal life is placed in exact parallel with believing or partaking by faith in Christ - vv. 35-36; 47-48

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.



3. In John 6:35 although no liquid had been introduced up to this point, "thirst" is used in parallel with "hunger" which are both eliminated by PARTAKING of Christ as "THE BREAD OF LIFE". Hence, both "cometh" and "believeth" are also used in parallel with each other in order to define how "thirst" and "hunger" are elminated through PARTAKING of Christ.

4. The words "cometh to me" cannot possibly refer phsical arrival to the physical presence of Christ as this would deny anyone living past the cross could "come to Christ"! However, ARminians constantly use this phrase when inviting sinners to believe - "come to Jesus" or "come to the cross" meaning BELEIVE ON HIM or CHOOSE TO BELIEVE IN HIM. Every Arminian Evangelist uses these phrases this way today.


28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Rom. 5:1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Heb. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


5. Matthew 11:28 uses the word "come" in the very same sense as Jesus uses it in John 6. Here also. rest from the burden of sin is eliminated by simply coming to Christ. Coming PARTAKES of the "rest" found in Christ and Paul plainly says "by faith we have peace with God " - Rom. 5:1 - rather than PHYSICAL ARRIVAL. If we interpret "coming to me" as "SPIRITUAL ARRIVAL" there can be no such thing apart from faith as it is impossible for anyone that "cometh" to God WITHOUT FAITH - Heb. 11:6.

CONCLUSION: so anyway you define "cometh to me" must INCLUDE the idea of "coming to Christ in/by faith" wherein is the exercise of the will.

APPLICATION: Hence, "come to me" in John 6:44 means "come to me in/by faith". Thus "draw" is God's enablement to exercise the will to come to Christ in faith - meaning - faith is the work of God not of men, as "no man can come to me" in faith. That is precisely how Christ applied verse 44 to those in verse 64. They were still without faith because God had not enabled them or "given" it to them - v. 65. This was not a new condition, but Christ knew they were without faith "FROM THE BEGINNING" when they professed to be followers of Christ.

Remember, the context is NOT about the relationship between the believer and the gospel or gospel ministry. The context is about the work that no man can do but God and thus itis about God's work in making sure "ALL" He gives to Christ do in fact come to Christ and NONE of that "ALL" be lost. John 6:37-39 reveals the PURPOSED WILL of God to obtain that end whereas John 6:44-45 reveals the POWER of God to obtain that end.

 

[The Biblicist]

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Coming is presented by Christ as the direct consequence of the Father's action of being given. This is proven by the fact that Christ uses the FUTURE tense "shall come" in direct relationship to the PRESENT tense "giveth."

Furthermore, the text provides no other causative action for coming than the Father's work of being given. This is the plain indisputable grammar that cannot be overturned by any amount of vain philosophical reasoning.

As we have proven from the immediate context in my previous post on the meaning of "cometh to me" means "believeth on me" wherein is the exercise of the will. Thus being given by the Father is the necessary condition for coming/believing/willing.

To be "given" by the Father is defined in connection with the ETERNAL WILL OF PURPOSE by divine election in giving some to Christ so that "ALL" effectually come to Christ and NONE be lost - demonstrating the effectual work of being given by the Father in verses 38-39 and I quote:

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me,

1. His ETERNAL purpose is noted that the Father's choice of giving these to the Son occured PRIOR TO the incarnation - "I came down...to do..the will of him that sent me"

2. The EFFECTUAL will of the Father is noted by the fact that NOTHING "of all" those given fail to come to Christ.

3. The EFFCTUAL will of the Father is noted by the fact that it is Christ NOT US that performs this will of the Father in making certain NONE "of all" given are lost.

4. The ETERNAL ELECTIVE choice to give this particular "ALL" to the Son precedes the incarnation "I came down....to do....the will" and this eternal elective choice "OF ALL" given is EFFECTUAL to salvation = "I SHALL lose NOTHING."

 

[The Biblicist]

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Drawing by the Father is presented as a NECESSARY CONDITION to come to Christ just as being given by the Father is presented as a GRAMMATICAL necessary condition to come to Christ as proven in my previous post.

As proven in an eariler post "come to Christ" according to the immediate context is defined as "believe on me" wherein is the exercise of the will. The former verses (37-39) deal with God's ETERNAL PURPOSE/WILL of ELECTION to EFFECTUAL salvation as "all" given equal "all" that "shall come" to Christ.

Here in verse 44 the POWER of God is what is the effectual cause for all who come to Christ in faith. Hence, those eternally chosen to EFFECTUALLY come to Christ in verses 37-39 come due to the Father's POWER (draw) resulting in choice/believing/coming to Christ. Here is a direct statement that choosing/coming/believing is due to God's POWER not to man's own ability.

Furthermore, Drawing is effectual as "THEY shall ALL" (same "all" in verses 37-39) be taught/drawn "of God." NONE of "THEY" shall fail to be taught/drawn by God.

Furthemore, Jesus defines "draw" to mean "taught" by the immediate scripture quotation taken from the PLURAL "prophets" where the reference is Isaiah 54:13 and Jeremiah 31:33-34 or the "ALL" of the New Covenant people of God. In both of these scriptures the "prophets" use the FUTURE TENSE "shall" when applying what is defined by the writer of Hebews as the "NEW" covenant in regard to Israel (Heb. 8; Rom. 11:25-28) but is PRESENTLY being applied to ALL THE ELECT as individuals (Heb. 10:10-17) or "the blood of the EVERLASTING covenant" (Heb. 13:20).

Significantly the teaching referred to by Isaiah does not come from men as Jeremiah specifically states "34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Furthermore the realm of this teaching activity is INTERNAL and the creative act of God by divine revelation of knowledge:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Therefore, the "ALL" of the Isaiah/Jeremiah quotation are the NEW COVENANT ELECT PEOPLE consisting of all elect individuals and future Isael and "THEY shall be ALL taught"/drawn by God.

Finally, Christ defines what it means to be "taught/draw" in verse 45b. Both words "heard" and "learned" have direct and immediate reference to "taught" in the Isaiah/Jermiah quotation in verse 45a. "ALL" shall be taught of God because Christ defiines "taught" to include "EVERY MAN" (translates same Greek term as "all") and thus the SAME "ALL" in the Isaiah quotation "have" (aorist tense completed action) describing both descriptive nouns (Heard, learned) showing identical or simeltaneous action proving that hearing and learning are insepabable completed actions inclusive of "taught." It is impossible to be taught without BOTH actions and therefore there is no such thing as a person who has been "taught" but has not "learned" or who has been "taught" but has not heard. Both "taught" and "heard" are defined by the Isaiah/Jeremiah quotation to be INTERNAL revelation by God NOT IMPARTED BY MEN.

CONCLUSION:

1. Drawing is the necessary condition to coming/beleiving/willing.

2. Draw equals taught

3. Isaiah/Jeremiah quotation denies teaching is performed by men but is a supernatural internal creative revelation by God "write my law upon their hearts" - "they shall no more teach every man his neighbor"

4. Taught equals both INTERNALIZED "heard" and "learned" as described by prophets which excludes the work of men.

5. Verses 37-39 ETERNAL PURPOSE/WILL OF ELECTION to coming to EFEECUAL and ETERNAL salvation so that NONE are lost. Thus giving is sole and thus necessary condition provided for coming.

6.Verses 44-45 OMINPOTENT power ("draw") as sole condition provided and thus necessary to coming whereby "ALL" are "taught/draw" of God which excludes all men from this internal creative revelatory work whereby God's law is written on their heart.

7. Hence, the choice of scripture quotations used by Christ to define draw in verse 45a EXPLICITLY deny man is involved in this teaching as it involves writing the law upon the heart. The scripture quotations chosen by Christ demand it is effectuall for "ALL" who are taught as it is the "ALL" of the New Covenant people - the elect.

 

[The Biblicist]

That's because it's not appreciably different from what you've been be-laboring since the thread started:

It's re-worded, re-packaged...but not appreciably different. No one can conceivably give you the answer you want unless it's "WOW Biblicist"!! Thanks for the brilliant exegesis! :wavey: :wavey: "You've been right about everything all along!" :thumbsup:

Here goes then:

"You know....I don't think anyone can possibly avoid the inevitable conclusions you posed about John 6: You arguments are air-tight, iron-clad and your exegesis perfect!" :thumbsup:

Why lie? That is what you are doing and you know it! Again, your post reveals your juvenile maturity and attitude and then you lie. Try being honest and mature for a change. Leave the immature ridicule out of your post and post as a mature person. If you really believe that then attempt to respond to it in a MATURE and INTELLIGENT and HONEST fashion. It is post #201 just posted again above.

 

[The Biblicist]

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jesus is referring to Isaiah 54:13 and Jeremiah 31:33-34 which read:

13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.


33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

1. Isaiah DEFINES the extent of this work - "ALL THY CHILDREN"

2. Jeremiah DEFINES the nature of this work - "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts" as the "new covenant" work

3. Both restrict this work to God alone "taught OF GOD" "They shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother"

4. This work is described by both prophets to be yet FUTURE in regard to the nation of Israel as does Paul - "shall" - Rom. 11:25-28.

5. This same new covenant is applied PRESENTLY to all INDIVIDUAL ELECT as it is the covenant described in hebrews 8-10:

Heb. 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old.

Heb. 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 ¶ Having therefore, brethren,


6. This is the "blood of the EVERLASTING COVENANT" inclusive of the elect in all ages - Heb. 13:20

Heb. 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

7. These prophetic quotations were chosen by Christ to define what to be drawn by the Father means and who is drawn by the Father. It means it is a supernatural internal work performed by God WITHIN THE HEART that no man can do and it is the work performed by God to only the New Covenant people of God.

Ezek. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Notice that the new covenant work of God described in verse 26 is the "CAUSE" for willingness "to walk in my statutes" in verse 27. Verse 26 describes what it means to be drawn/taught by the Father.

 

[Inspector Javert]

.......... If you really believe that

I believe you are simply verbosely repeating the same arguments over and over with more re-packaging. I don't believe anything you are saying is appreciably different from anything you've been saying for the last week at least.....Remember that gift you had for writing that 15-page essay on a book you never read in school?.....That's your posts. Mostly filler, no real meat. Oh, it sounds grand. But it's essentially tofu. I don't doubt you fooled your English teachers every time you read some cliff-notes and wrote a 15,000 word essay on a book you didn't bother to read.

I had/have the same talent.

Thus, there's no reason to respond to it.

then attempt to respond to it in a MATURE and INTELLIGENT and HONEST fashion. It is post #201 just posted again above.

1.) If I did respond...you wouldn't actually read it. (That much seems evident to me, as noted on numerous occasions).

2.) You just accussed me of being a "liar" and immature (repeatedly)....

If you honestly think all that.....than what GOOD and DECENT reason would you have to ask for a response???
What sane person honestly WANTS to have discussions with a person like that?
What could your purpose possibly be?
Those are the requests of a mad-man...find an "immature liar" (your words) and demand they "honestly and intelligently respond" to you. Are you listening to yourself?

Here's my honest response:
We've been through all of this, and, frankly, you are impossible to debate with. 95% of EVERYTHING you just said in these 8,000 word-long posts of yours is not debatable and has never been denied. You then simply jump to the conclusion that:

Therefore: "DRAW"= "COME" and "TAUGHT" and "RAISED"!!!!!
That's the part you are simply assuming and forcing into the text....as EVERYONE who disagrees with you has been saying. Since the text itself doesn't say that in the least....you have to try to lose everyone in a small novella of side-show after side-show of irrelevancy in order to force it to say what it simply doesn't say. You continuously argue in one humongous circle.

Furthermore, you've already announced about 6 times to us that you've already "proven" your point.
So, if you've already "proven" your points as you keep insisting, then why do you continue to post these (repetitive) dissertations?
Shouldn't it be self-evident to everyone who reads?
Again....the actions of a mad-man.
Also I actually don't think you personally REALLY understand all that much Greek to tell you the truth. I think you are a poseur in that regard, attempting to conflate the strength of your own posts.

Because of these reasons, I decided that all you REALLY want is affirmation of how very right you are and for everyone to agree whole-heartedly with everything you say. I think you are the debate forums' version of a woman fishing for compliments about her looks. I think that's what you really truly want so you've got it:

"You are absolutely correct Biblicist...I never should have doubted you. The Word speaks clearly, and you have exegeted it perfectly for us. Thank you for educating me, nay US!! all of us! on the errors of our way." God has used you mightily.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

With 205 posts, I think it's time to close this thread.