Go And Sin No More

[Martin]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Martin:
Btw Paul did not call himself the "chief of all sinners" after his salvation.

Really? He says "of who I am chief", not "of who I was chief". It's clear that he describes himself as he was at the time of writing, which was after hsi salvation. </font>[/QUOTE]==I think you have missed the point. Go back and read carefully what I said.

Paul was not talking about his Christian lifestyle rather if one looks at 1Timothy 1:12-17, where Paul makes the statement in question, he is talking about his pre-conversion life (vs13). Certainly Paul put no confidence in his good deeds because those can't save. And certainly Paul understood that he was deserving of the wrath of God because he was a sinner helpless before a Holy God. However Paul also understood that due to his conversion he would never be the same again (Gal 2:20). Was Paul sinless? Certainly not (Rom 7:14-20)! However Paul, once saved, did not live a lifestyle of sin.

Paul said he is the chief of sinners because he was what he had described in the previous verses, yet he had found grace (the grace which Paul said changes lives, see Titus 2:11-14).

Do you believe a person can be a Christian yet live a lifestyle of sin?

Martin.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Martin:
Do you believe a person can be a Christian yet live a lifestyle of sin?

"LIfestyle of sin" is rather subjective. I dont' believe that you can live as a slave to sin when your'e saved. But a Christian can, will, and does, sin, and sometimes sin frequently.

Since being saved, have you ever gotten to work late? exceeded the speed limit? Looked at another person, or image of another person, with sexual thoughts? Eaten too much ice ceam? Worked seven days in a row? Fudged a little on your taxes? Gotten too much change from the grocery store and refused to return it? Taken a pen/pencil/paper/paperclip from work and kept it?

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother James:
If that's true brother nobody loves him.

Absolutely right. I sin frequently enough. It may affect my relstionship with the Lord, but to imply that I don't love the Lord, that's plain unscriptural.

Heck, Paul said he was the chief of all sinners. I wouldn't question his love for the Lord. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not implying anything, I'm just telling what the Bible says.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23-24
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

1 John 2:4-5
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

If you aren't keeping His commands, John says you don't even know Him.

 

[HankD]

Btw Paul did not call himself the "chief of all sinners" after his salvation

Actually in 1 Timothy 1:15 he says
1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

He says "I am chief" not "I was chief".

HankD

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Btw Paul did not call himself the "chief of all sinners" after his salvation

Actually in 1 Timothy 1:15 he says
1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

He says "I am chief" not "I was chief".

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]==Refer to above reply.

 

[Martin]

John,

You said:
LIfestyle of sin" is rather subjective. I dont' believe that you can live as a slave to sin when your'e saved. But a Christian can, will, and does, sin, and sometimes sin frequently.

==Nobody is saying that Christians can't sin (see above reply). Again this is about lifestyle/direction not perfectionism.

_____________________________________

Martin.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
I'm not implying anything, I'm just telling what the Bible says.

The Bible doesn't say what you think it does. Context.

If sinning = not loving Jesus, and all sin, then none of us loves Jesus, and since not loving Jesus = not coming to him, then none of us are saved.

You're welcome to believe a snippet vrese here and there, but I'll choose to believe scripture as a whole.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Martin:
Again this is about lifestyle/direction not perfectionism.

That's not what was said. James Newman said in an earlier post "a Christian who sins doesn't love Jesus", and you said "I am saying that Christians don't practice sin". Both of those statements are scripturally false.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James_Newman:
I'm not implying anything, I'm just telling what the Bible says.

The Bible doesn't say what you think it does. Context.

If sinning = not loving Jesus, and all sin, then none of us loves Jesus, and since not loving Jesus = not coming to him, then none of us are saved.

You're welcome to believe a snippet vrese here and there, but I'll choose to believe scripture as a whole. </font>[/QUOTE]Who said you had to love Jesus to be saved? You have any scripture for that one? Those verses say exactly what I say they said, I just copy and paste. Go argue with Jesus.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Martin:
John,

You said:
LIfestyle of sin" is rather subjective. I dont' believe that you can live as a slave to sin when your'e saved. But a Christian can, will, and does, sin, and sometimes sin frequently.

==Nobody is saying that Christians can't sin (see above reply). Again this is about lifestyle/direction not perfectionism.

_____________________________________

Martin.

Of course it isn't, because if we had to live up to the standard that Jesus put forth, no one would be saved. We just have to be good enough to meet our own subjective standard. But the Lord said Go and sin no more. You interpret that to mean Go and sin not so much.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Paul in Romans says that we will continue to sin.

Dear friend,

You have this backwards! “How shall we who died to sin still live in it?” (Rom. 6:2)

Paul writes in Romans 7:1-3 that if the Christian’s old nature is still alive, he is committing adultery with Christ!

Rom. 7:1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2. For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

The Apostle John said it more plainly,

1 John 3:2. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
3. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

My dear brother, have you purified yourself, just as Jesus is pure?

John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34. Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Have you been set free from sin? Jesus said, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

(All Scriptures, NASB, 1995)

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Martin:
Again this is about lifestyle/direction not perfectionism.

That's not what was said. James Newman said in an earlier post "a Christian who sins doesn't love Jesus", and you said "I am saying that Christians don't practice sin". Both of those statements are scripturally false. </font>[/QUOTE]==Scripture teaches that a person who practices sin is a child of the devil (1John 3:9-10, etc). That is not a random verse that teaching is all through the New Testament in one form or the other (Rom 1:18-32, 1Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:3-12, Rev 21:8,27,22:15, Matt 7:15-23, 25:31-46, Jn 8:31-51, 12:20-26, 14:23-24, 1Jn 2:3-6, 3:7-15, etc, etc).

Scripture is clear:

"Little children, make sure no one decieves you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot practice sin because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother" 1John 3:7-10

That sounds alot like Paul's statement(s) in Ephesians 5:5 and following.

"For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one decieve you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience"

Martin.

[ October 08, 2005, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Martin ]

 

[donnA]

Originally posted by Martin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by donnA:
I'm not sure, are you saying christians don't sin,that if a person sins they are not a christian? If something else please explain.

==I am saying that Christians don't practice sin. This is in line with John 8:12, 14:23-24, 1Jn 2:3-6, 3:9-10.

Martin. </font>[/QUOTE]ok,
pratice means to me something you would be doing on a regular bases, over and over the same sin. Is this what you mean?

 

[donnA]

Our righteousness, the righteousness we have as our own, did not come from us. We have Christ's righteousness, none of our own, like someone said, thats filthy rags. We all sin, probably daily, in one way or another. Paul said he still sined,and John wrote us instructions for when we do sin. It has nothing to do with do we actually love Jesus or not. We are in the flesh and as such we will continue to sin, our flesh is not perfect. The difference is we do not live daily in one continuece sin, doing to samething over and over, a pratice of our lives. Another difference is sorrow for sin, if we didn't love Jesus we'd feel no sorrow for our sins.
You can't build a doctrine on one verse, you must look at the entire thing.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Martin:

Modern Christianity misses this point all too often. The Gospel calls for a change of life, a change of walk. It calls for a new life (as a result of forgivness). If a person is still in sin, they are still in darkness, and are probably not saved (Jn 8:12). Jesus called this woman to "go and sin no more". Jesus is calling us, through His Word, to go and sin no more. He is calling us to repent.


In Christ,
Martin.

AMEN Martin. Christianity involves "a closer walk with Thee." Far too many preachers and those who consider themselves christians do not WANT to believe this because it's much more difficult than just praying the sinner's prayer.

Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[HankD]

==Refer to above reply.

It doesn't matter Martin, he could have said "I was the chief of sinners" but instead via the inspiration of the Holy Spirit he said "I am the chief".

Now each of us has a certain sensitivity to the still small voice of the Spirit and the Spirit Himself no doubt meats out conviction according to our ability to receive it. We respond or reject and sometimes our rejection is self-deceiving.

Paul therefore and apparently still deeply agonized concerning the remnant of sin in his members and cries out in another place "24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?".

IMO, This is the major symptomatic difference between the wheat and the tares (weeds). The tares (children of the devil), strut around in a show of holy piety and superior sprituality while the children of God do not hide but acknowledge and even agonize concerning their sin.

That is not to say that the tares cannot/will not be saved. I believe one of the reasons Jesus said to leave them alone is because He knew that even some "tares" can and will be converted.

HankD

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Paul in Romans says that we will continue to sin.

Dear friend,

You have this backwards! “How shall we who died to sin still live in it?” (Rom. 6:2)

Paul writes in Romans 7:1-3 that if the Christian’s old nature is still alive, he is committing adultery with Christ!

Rom. 7:1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2. For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

The Apostle John said it more plainly,

1 John 3:2. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
3. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

My dear brother, have you purified yourself, just as Jesus is pure?

John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34. Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Have you been set free from sin? Jesus said, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

(All Scriptures, NASB, 1995)

</font>[/QUOTE]Actually, I believe that we are trying to say the same thing. By saying that we will continue to sin I meant occasionally and, recognizing our sin, will get back on the "straight and narrow." I did not mean we will live a life ruled by sin as we did before being saved. We need to continually purify ourselves not just once as most believe. I absolutely believe the verse.

"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

I reject the doctrine of OSAS.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />==Refer to above reply.

It doesn't matter Martin, he could have said "I was the chief of sinners" but instead via the inspiration of the Holy Spirit he said "I am the chief".

Now each of us has a certain sensitivity to the still small voice of the Spirit and the Spirit Himself no doubt meats out conviction according to our ability to receive it. We respond or reject and sometimes our rejection is self-deceiving.

Paul therefore and apparently still deeply agonized concerning the remnant of sin in his members and cries out in another place "24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?".

IMO, This is the major symptomatic difference between the wheat and the tares (weeds). The tares (children of the devil), strut around in a show of holy piety and superior sprituality while the children of God do not hide but acknowledge and even agonize concerning their sin.

That is not to say that the tares cannot/will not be saved. I believe one of the reasons Jesus said to leave them alone is because He knew that even some "tares" can and will be converted.

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]This is what the Bible says:

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The tares will be burned in the fire.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by donnA:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Martin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by donnA:
I'm not sure, are you saying christians don't sin,that if a person sins they are not a christian? If something else please explain.

==I am saying that Christians don't practice sin. This is in line with John 8:12, 14:23-24, 1Jn 2:3-6, 3:9-10.

Martin. </font>[/QUOTE]ok,
pratice means to me something you would be doing on a regular bases, over and over the same sin. Is this what you mean? </font>[/QUOTE]==Practice would be defined as a lifestyle. This I think is how it is defined in the Bible. It is never a "one time act" as such. Rather it is a practice.

"those who practice such things are worthy of death" Rom 1:32

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God?...Such were some of you.." 1Cor 6:9,11

"Now the deeds of the flesh are evident...those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God" Gal 5:19,21

In Christ,
Martin.

 

[donnA]

I agree Martin, not a one time act, but a lifestyle.
I can't believe some think they do not sin. The bible all ahve sinned, no one does good.