Go And Sin No More

[Martin]

StraightAndNarrow:
Christianity involves "a closer walk with Thee." Far too many preachers and those who consider themselves christians do not WANT to believe this because it's much more difficult than just praying the sinner's prayer.

==That is for sure! Easy believism, as it is commonly called, has been a problem for years. When we read Spurgeon, Lloyd Jones, Pink, etc we see that they were concerned about these very issues. Sadly over the past twenty or so years (if not longer) the easy believism camp has become the main stream. With teachers such as Zane Hodges and Bob Wilkin promoting it every where they can. We also have Dr Tony Evans, a wildly popular preacher, who openly teaches the doctrine of Hodges. In his book "Totally Saved" Evans gave credit to Zane Hodges for "greatly influenced" him. If one reads "Totally Saved" beside Hodge's "Gospel Under Siege" or "Grace In Eclipse" one quickly sees the connections. The same with Wilkin's "Confident in Christ" and Charles Stanley's "Eternal Security" (not one of Dr Stanley's better publications). So this has gone main stream and is now a big problem. Even in my church, where the preacher teaches and believes in the Biblical doctrine of salvation and Lordship, my Sunday School class has folks who believe the teachings associated with the so-called "Free Grace" or "Anti-Lordship" group (Hodges, etc). So it is clearly main stream.

I would suggest people read several books.

From John MacArthur:
"Hard To Believe"
"The Gospel According To Jesus"
"The Gospel According To The Apostles"

Ray Comfort has a good book called "Hell's Best Kept Secret". There is also the rather large book by Martin Lloyd Jones called "The Assurance of Salvation" which is a great study of John 17.

This is a very important subject, if not the most important doctrinal subject of our day.

In Christ,
Martin.

 

[Martin]

HankD:

You said:
It doesn't matter Martin, he could have said "I was the chief of sinners" but instead via the inspiration of the Holy Spirit he said "I am the chief".

==I would argue that you are isolating that statement from its context. Again Paul certainly understood his sinfulness in the present tense. My argument is that Paul was not living a lifestyle of sin. He was not a drunk, homosexual, fornicator, liar, etc. Those who practice such things are not saved and will have their home in the lake of fire (Rev 21:8).

Martin.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by donnA:
Our righteousness, the righteousness we have as our own, did not come from us. We have Christ's righteousness, none of our own, like someone said, thats filthy rags. We all sin, probably daily, in one way or another. Paul said he still sined,and John wrote us instructions for when we do sin. It has nothing to do with do we actually love Jesus or not. We are in the flesh and as such we will continue to sin, our flesh is not perfect. The difference is we do not live daily in one continuece sin, doing to samething over and over, a pratice of our lives. Another difference is sorrow for sin, if we didn't love Jesus we'd feel no sorrow for our sins.
You can't build a doctrine on one verse, you must look at the entire thing.

1 John 3:3. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Paul did NOT say that he sinned. The “I” in Rom. 7:14-25 is rhetorical, and is the portrayal of a devout Jew struggling unsuccessfully to keep the Law, but finding that he has not the ability to do so. Paul was the last person who would have struggled to keep the Law, for he forcefully taught that we are NOT under the Law, but under grace. And Paul was the last man who would write that he “delighted in the Law of God,” because according to Paul the Law was the very power of sin. (Cor. 15:56). Paul was redeemed from sin by the blood of the Lamb; the man in Romans 7:14-25 was “sold into bondage to sin.”

No man can find salvation by struggling to keep the Law. And the Law itself is powerless to save anyone, for it is itself “the power of sin.”

Rom. 8:2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4. so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

John did NOT write instructions for “when” we do sin; he wrote instructions for “if” we sin.

All Scriptures NASB, 1995, except for Rom. 7:22, KJV)

 

[SandbergToGrace]

I believe this topic is very important and one of the reasons for the state of the Church as it is today.

The more we as Believers live the Surrendered and Abundant Life, the more we hate sin and see how horrific it is. We gain more of God's perspective of sin and it no longer becomes a question of how close to the world we can be, how much sin we can commit and still be a Christian; it now becomes our intention to see how far away we can keep from sin. We want nothing to do with it and we avoid it like most people avoid filth and disease. Yes, while we are in the flesh we will sin sometimes, but we will FALL into sin, not DIVE into it. Our thoughts will not be how much sin we can commit and still be saved, but rather when we sin, it will be as shocking or horrific to us as when we fall in a pit of chicken manure (I know, I grew up on a chicken farm and this happened to me once). We hate it and we immediately repent and seek to be cleaned up. We hate what sin does to our closeness to Jesus and we immediately go to Him to be cleaned.

I once was a person who thought, "Why is sin such a big deal? I'm human, I can't help it. If I sin, God will forgive me anyway." I believe many Christians have similar thoughts today. I am not so naive to believe I was the only one who thought this way. The result of this thinking is seen in many of the lukewarm, "having the name of Christ, but none of His power" churches in existence today.

 

[HankD]

The tares will be burned in the fire.

If they remain tares.

HankD

 

[Craigbythesea]

SandbergToGrace,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us! And welcome to the Baptist Board!

 

[BM]

Hey guess what if any thing came from you that God would be pleased with, if any good fruit was produced it wouldn't be you anyway, it would be God's rightness working in you because you are saved.Your rightness is nothing but filthy rags but God's rightness is what he want's to manifest in us that are saved.Give him all the praise and glory and you your flesh will drop a lemon no matter who you are,all have droped lemon's and came short of God's glory.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
Who said you had to love Jesus to be saved?

That would be your analogy that says so, since your analogy says sinning=not saved, and sinning = not loving Jesus, therefore not loving Jesus = not saved.

Go argue with Jesus.

Scripture says all sin, and the one who says he does not sins is not being truthful. Scripture also says Paul loved Jesus, and yet Paul is not only a sinner, but the chief of sinners. So go argue with Jesus yourself.

 

[Roguelet]

I always wondered why the " Man " she was sinning with wasn't held accountable ? Why was he allowed to sin ?

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Roguelet:
I always wondered why the " Man " she was sinning with wasn't held accountable ? Why was he allowed to sin ?

I used to think the same thing. One explanation might be the cultural view of men vs women of the day. Another might be that the man simply got away. Another might be that the men in the crowd knew the man, and wanted to protect him at the woman's expense.

But the most likely reason who the man isn't mentioned is because he isn't pertinent to the story we're being told.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James_Newman:
Who said you had to love Jesus to be saved?

That would be your analogy that says so, since your analogy says sinning=not saved, and sinning = not loving Jesus, therefore not loving Jesus = not saved.

Go argue with Jesus.

Scripture says all sin, and the one who says he does not sins is not being truthful. Scripture also says Paul loved Jesus, and yet Paul is not only a sinner, but the chief of sinners. So go argue with Jesus yourself. </font>[/QUOTE]That is your own dichotomy. Sinning = not saved? Where did I ever say that? I said if your sinning you don't love Jesus. You are the one who insists that you have to love Jesus to be saved. I think the Bible said to believe on Him and you would be saved.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
I said if your sinning you don't love Jesus.

Then there is no one on this earth who loves Jesus, including you. Do you believe that?

 

[James_Newman]

Am I sinning? Do you not believe the Bible speaks of such a thing as relative righteousness? God said Job was perfect and upright before Him. In the absolute sense, yes we all sin. But you do not have to continually willfully sin. Jesus came to set you free from sin, don't you believe that?

John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
In the absolute sense, yes we all sin. But you do not have to continually willfully sin. Jesus came to set you free from sin, don't you believe that?

So now that you've been forced to acknowlege that you sin, you're changing your tune from "If you're sinning, then you don't love Jesus" to "if you're continually willfully sinning, you don't love Jesus".

 

[James_Newman]

If I say I have no sin, I am made a liar, no? There is always sin in us that we must continue to purge. But Jesus already dealt with that on the cross. Now, if I go out and commit adultery, is that loving Jesus? Are you going to tell me that I can't choose not to commit adultery?

Jesus said if you love Him, keep His commandments. You make it seem as if there is nothing we can do about willfully sinning. You are commanded to subdue your flesh and walk in the spirit. I never claimed I knew I was loving Jesus perfectly, but I can give you a long list of sins that I have been able to overcome through His grace. When we do stumble, we have the Lord's promise that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us. But if we just go on like everything is ok, because everybody sins you know, we will have to give account at the judgment seat and then we will find out if we loved Jesus or not. But don't for a moment think I ever said you had to love Jesus to be saved.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
If I say I have no sin, I am made a liar, no?

That's corret. And, unless it is your contention that there is no one who loves Jesus, it also negates your claim that the person who sins does not live Jesus.

Now, if I go out and commit adultery, is that loving Jesus? Are you going to tell me that I can't choose not to commit adultery?

You said that Jesus dealth with sin on the cross. Why do you think that Jesus did not also deal with the sin of adultery on the cross?

You make it seem as if there is nothing we can do about willfully sinning.

I neither said, nor did I remotely imply, any such thing. The contention is your original claim that if you sin, you don't love Jesus.

In fact, I do believe there is something we can do about willully sinning. We can choose to not sin. However, we are imperfect humans, and we will fail, and fail regularly. That's no excuse to not sin, of course, and it's no reason to think that someone who sins doesn't love Jesus.

You are commanded to subdue your flesh and walk in the spirit.

Which in no way implies that the one who sins does not love Jesus.

I never claimed I knew I was loving Jesus perfectly, but I can give you a long list of sins that I have been able to overcome through His grace.

Great. That doesn't change the fact that you said that the one who sins does not love Jesus. Therefore, you do not love Jesus.

When we do stumble, we have the Lord's promise that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us. But if we just go on like everything is ok, because everybody sins you know, we will have to give account at the judgment seat and then we will find out if we loved Jesus or not.

You didn't say anything about repenting. You said the one who sins does not love Jesus.

But don't for a moment think I ever said you had to love Jesus to be saved.

We don't have to love Jesus to be saved? Uhhh, okay. I always figured that loving Jesus was one of the things we did when we started following him.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James_Newman:
If I say I have no sin, I am made a liar, no?

That's corret. And, unless it is your contention that there is no one who loves Jesus, it also negates your claim that the person who sins does not live Jesus.

Now, if I go out and commit adultery, is that loving Jesus? Are you going to tell me that I can't choose not to commit adultery?

You said that Jesus dealth with sin on the cross. Why do you think that Jesus did not also deal with the sin of adultery on the cross?
</font>[/QUOTE]This is certainly dealt with by the cross. But this is dealing with our positional sanctification, not our daily walk with Christ. Just because God no longer sees our sin in regards to our eternal salvation does not mean that our sin is now acceptable to Him. You have to distinguish between the positional and the practical or the bible will make little sense.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You make it seem as if there is nothing we can do about willfully sinning.

I neither said, nor did I remotely imply, any such thing. The contention is your original claim that if you sin, you don't love Jesus.

In fact, I do believe there is something we can do about willully sinning. We can choose to not sin. However, we are imperfect humans, and we will fail, and fail regularly. That's no excuse to not sin, of course, and it's no reason to think that someone who sins doesn't love Jesus.
</font>[/QUOTE]Once again, the Lord said that, not me. I don't think that the great commandment ( And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength ) is talking about a feeling. Love in the bible is an action. When we disobey the Lord, we do not love him.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You are commanded to subdue your flesh and walk in the spirit.

Which in no way implies that the one who sins does not love Jesus.

</font>[/QUOTE]see above

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I never claimed I knew I was loving Jesus perfectly, but I can give you a long list of sins that I have been able to overcome through His grace.

Great. That doesn't change the fact that you said that the one who sins does not love Jesus. Therefore, you do not love Jesus.

</font>[/QUOTE]I probably do not love the Lord the way I should. I pray that He will reveal my sin to me and purge me of it.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />When we do stumble, we have the Lord's promise that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us. But if we just go on like everything is ok, because everybody sins you know, we will have to give account at the judgment seat and then we will find out if we loved Jesus or not.

You didn't say anything about repenting. You said the one who sins does not love Jesus.
</font>[/QUOTE]Not loving the Lord is a sin, isn't it? We should repent of it. He will forgive us like He said, praise God! But when we walk in sin, we have that condemnation on us.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

That is what we have to look forward to if we sin willfully and try to justify it with the 'everybody sins' defense.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />But don't for a moment think I ever said you had to love Jesus to be saved.

We don't have to love Jesus to be saved? Uhhh, okay. I always figured that loving Jesus was one of the things we did when we started following him. </font>[/QUOTE]I never said you had to follow Him either, believe on Him and you will be raised up on the last day. But you must be a faithful disciple to recieve the reward of the kingdom at the judgment seat.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
This is certainly dealt with by the cross. But this is dealing with our positional sanctification, not our daily walk with Christ. Just because God no longer sees our sin in regards to our eternal salvation does not mean that our sin is now acceptable to Him. You have to distinguish between the positional and the practical or the bible will make little sense.

I agree with all of that. However, you alluded to none of that when you said the one who sins does not love Jesus. It is this statement of yours that is incorrect.

Love in the bible is an action. When we disobey the Lord, we do not love him.

There are several loves mentioned in scripture, and all of them are translated "love" (one of the down sides of translating to English). You're referring to agape, or unconditional love, and you're correct. It's the decision to love, not accompanied by or motivated by feeling. That being said, when we commit to loving God the Father and Christ the Son, we will still invariably fail to remain sinless. We continue to love by learning from that failure and continuing on. However, we do not cease to love Jesus at those times we fail.

I probably do not love the Lord the way I should. I pray that He will reveal my sin to me and purge me of it.

I likewise probably do not love the Lord the way I should. I love the Lord regardless.

Not loving the Lord is a sin, isn't it?

Yes, not loving the Lord is a sin. However, I wasn't arguing that point. I was arguing the claim that if you sin, you don't love Jesus.

But you must be a faithful disciple to recieve the reward of the kingdom at the judgment seat.

If being faithful is a prerequisite to being saved, then it salvation not based on a work?

 

[James_Newman]

How, out of all of that, did you get being faithful is a prerequisite for salvation? I said you must be faithful to recieve the reward of the kingdom, which is a salvation, but eternal salvation is in no way meritted by our works. When Jesus said whosoever believes on Him would be raised up on the last day, He meant it. But the millennial kingdom is not assumed in this promise, the kingdom occurs before the last day. You must be found faithful at the judgment seat or you will not have part in it. Nevertheless, on the last day, all who believe will be saved, regardless of their works, because of His perfect work.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
How, out of all of that, did you get being faithful is a prerequisite for salvation?

I got it from your phrase "you must be a faithful disciple to recieve the reward of the kingdom at the judgment seat."