Go figure

[Allan]

I did not make any comment on whether dispensationalism was or was not wrong in my post to Marcia. I simply noted that tinytim said Christians are being deceived.

No, what he said was "IF" dispensationalism was wrong .. christians are being decieved, not THAT they are being decieved. That was what I was telling you to go back and read it again for.

Marcia was apparently concerned that the argument was being made that dispensationalists were not Christians. I simply was trying to assure her that tinytim had not said that.

Ok - Understood, however the way you worded it can be taken differently.

 

[OldRegular]

Ok - Understood, however the way you worded it can be taken differently.

Allan as I said earlier you take every opportunity to make some smart aleck remark to me. You would do well to take your own advice or be hypocritical!

Allan"s advice that he needs to follow
It is trying to debate subjects and issues with a Christian attitude when the other person is seemingly full of arrogance, self-conceit, pride, and a lack or grace in the matter and toward the person. It is this 'kind of attitude' is that becomes very tiring.

 

[Crabtownboy]

What bothers me is they are more interested in Peter and Paul and not JESUS!!!

I noticed that also, but was not surprised.

But if this a fair criticism or not?

If you read most of the responses on this BB, the topic does not seem to matter, you will see that Paul is quoted often and Jesus seldom. Should the people quoting only Paul here be criticized for ignoring the teachings of Jesus in their posts? I will leave that up to each person to decide.

 

[tinytim]

Marcia, Tiny stated "IF" it was wrong.. 'IF' and not that it is.

I think, but might be wrong, but I think that Tiny is a dispensationalist himself.

:laugh: Maybe a confused dispensationalist... I grew up dispensationalist.. but realize and appreciate the other systems.

Yes I said "IF"..

And I am talking about deceiving Christians.

One of Satan's tricks is to mix a dangerous lie into a system of truth... thus making the system very deadly. Like one drop of arsenic in a glass of kool-aid.
Now, remember I am talking about Christians....
We all know New age is a false religion.. So Satan is not going to waste his time trying to convince us that it is true..

BUT...

IF.. BIG IF... dispies are wrong.. .then here is the danger...

IF we are wrong about the rapture..
Then the next big event is Christ coming back to judge the world.
NO 7 yrs of people getting saved...
NO hope for anyone that is alive when He comes back...

Take the movie Left Behind.. a dispie favorite...
VERY DANGEROUS!!! Why?

It teaches that people that heard the Gospel before the rapture can be saved...
TD Jakes, and Haggee both have movies out that explains the gospel to people wondering what happened to all their loved ones... in hopes that they can get saved AFTER the rapture...

BUT if there is no rapture, all these people that may have watched Left Behind, and thought to themselves... "I'll wait, and see.."...
Then if there is no rapture, and no 7 yrs... THEN... they are doomed...

We could be teaching inadvertantly a false teaching, and people are being damned to Hell because they believe they have 7 yrs to get saved, even after the rapture.

Ruth Graham wrote an article several yrs ago, dealing with this.. I will try to find it and post it, if it made it to the internet...

So, of course New Age is dangerous... it will send people to Hell.
But IF dispies are wrong.. (and I am one) then the fact that we teach people can be saved after the rapture, may send some to Hell too...

It may also soften us, and we will not be prepared IF we have to go through the tribulation period.. we will be thinking to ourselves.. "this can't be the trib. period... that guy can't be the antichrist, because the rapture hasn't happened... "... and then I wonder how many Christians would fall for a smooth talking, charismatic public figure that seems to have all the answers to the worlds problems... all because they have their faith in the fact that they will be out of here when this guy shows up.

That could be disasterous for many Christians.

 

[tinytim]

Here is the link I mentioned http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/Rapture/ruth.html

 

[Allan]

Allan as I said earlier you take every opportunity to make some smart aleck remark to me. You would do well to take your own advice or be hypocritical!

LOL.. Yes, your sooooo humble and full of grace, never calling people names, ect...Ok, I'll take the splinter out of my eye. :thumbs:

By The Way - My post about that was NOT linked to your post about Tinytims but prior to that one with you commenting on Marcia's post:

Can you possibly comment on a thread without slamming dispensationalism? This kind of attitude is getting very tiring.

To which you stated:

Does the truth hurt?

To which I replied to you:

I'm not Marcia however ..
The answer is most likely no. It is trying to debate subjects and issues with a Christian attitude when the other person is seemingly full of arrogance, self-conceit, pride, and a lack or grace in the matter and toward the person. It is this 'kind of attitude' is that becomes very tiring.

 

[Allan]

IF we are wrong about the rapture..
Then the next big event is Christ coming back to judge the world.
NO 7 yrs of people getting saved...
NO hope for anyone that is alive when He comes back...

You lost me here. If there is no rapture then you still have 7 years of tribulation. The Tribulation is not depenant upon the rapture to happen. Even before the concept of rapture (which I agree is a view around since about the 1300's) the premil view, if I remember correctly, still held to a 7 year tribulation period, the man of sin being a world ruler, ect.

I don't understand in world you mean by No hope for anyone that is alive to be saved..?? Even during the tribulation the gospel is going out and people are getting saved. Shoot, even the angels get involved in proclaiming it. :thumbs:

It teaches that people that heard the Gospel before the rapture can be saved...

Left Behind is a fictional story based upon certain theological facts. However what you just gave is partially correct brother. Just because a person has heard the gospel message does not mean that God had yet opened their eyes to understand the message. Those who can not be saved when the Tribulation begins are those who have knowing the truth had rejected it in the same manner as we see portrayed in Romans 1:18-32(?)

People will be saved after the rapture brother.

BUT if there is no rapture, all these people that may have watched Left Behind, and thought to themselves... "I'll wait, and see.."...
Then if there is no rapture, and no 7 yrs... THEN... they are doomed...

How do you figure? They are only doomed if God does not reveal to them spiriual truth. However no rapture does not equate to no 7 year Tribulation period in which the Anti-Christ rules the world. So I'm not sure I'm understanding your point of them being doomed..

We could be teaching inadvertantly a false teaching, and people are being damned to Hell because they believe they have 7 yrs to get saved, even after the rapture.

If anyone holds that view they have already rejected the truth brother. They aren't looking to see if anything is true but are hoping they have time to still enjoy their sin. Those who enter the Tribulation 'planning' on getting saved later are already standing in rejection of Christ and only waiting for the day they can claim fire insurance.

But IF dispies are wrong.. (and I am one) then the fact that we teach people can be saved after the rapture, may send some to Hell too...

Would you like some scriptures that show people will get saved after the rapture?

It may also soften us, and we will not be prepared IF we have to go through the tribulation period.. we will be thinking to ourselves.. "this can't be the trib. period... that guy can't be the antichrist, because the rapture hasn't happened... "... and then I wonder how many Christians would fall for a smooth talking, charismatic public figure that seems to have all the answers to the worlds problems... all because they have their faith in the fact that they will be out of here when this guy shows up.

That could be disasterous for many Christians.

I don't believe so. There are many things that will let us know that we are in the Tribulation and we WILL know it. Regardless of if there is a rapture or not, true Christains will hold fast and continue as they have been (well maybe more so) and those false fire insurance, all about me false professers would be weeded out. :thumbs:

 

[OldRegular]

Would you like some scriptures that show people will get saved after the rapture?

How about some Scripture showing that there is such a thing as a pretrib rapture!:laugh:

 

[tinytim]

Allan, this is a typo... sorry..

NO hope for anyone that is alive when He comes back...

I meant no hope for anyone not saved.

One system of thought says that the trib has already happened.. or it was symbolic...

IF this teaching is true, then when Christ comes back.. that's it.. nothing else.
Then comes instant judgment.

No pretrib rapture, no trib period.. just him coming back.. like in Matt. 25. and seperating the sheep from the goats

IF that is true... then the people out here waiting to get saved during the trib period will not have a chance.

SOOO... if we teach there is a rapture, trib, and there is not.. it is very dangerous.

A better way to teach is to teach that NOW is the day of salvation...
Be prepared no matter what.
Choose Christ NOW.

After all, you might not even live until the rapture.

 

[OldRegular]

Allan, this is a typo... sorry..


I meant no hope for anyone not saved.

One system of thought says that the trib has already happened.. or it was symbolic...

IF this teaching is true, then when Christ comes back.. that's it.. nothing else.
Then comes instant judgment.

No pretrib rapture, no trib period.. just him coming back.. like in Matt. 25. and seperating the sheep from the goats

IF that is true... then the people out here waiting to get saved during the trib period will not have a chance.

SOOO... if we teach there is a rapture, trib, and there is not.. it is very dangerous.

A better way to teach is to teach that NOW is the day of salvation...
Be prepared no matter what.
Choose Christ NOW.

After all, you might not even live until the rapture.

It is important to note that the implications of a general resurrection and judgment are not trivial in today’s theological climate. A general resurrection and judgment means that there is no ‘secret rapture’ of the Church prior to any period of ‘great tribulation’, and no millennial reign. The Church will remain on earth until they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [Matthew 24:30, KJV] and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen [Revelation 1:7, KJV]. Whatever tribulation comes before that time the Church will endure just as Jesus Christ taught and just as the history of the Church bears witness. In fact Scripture teaches repeatedly that tribulation is the norm of life for the Saints, the ‘true believers’.

 

[Marcia]

Take the movie Left Behind.. a dispie favorite...
VERY DANGEROUS!!! Why?

It teaches that people that heard the Gospel before the rapture can be saved...

TT, I did not read nor see the Left Behind books/movies, but I don't see why people can't be saved after the rapture. If one believes in a pre-trib rapture, then there are passages that indicate people can be saved during it. In fact, I think the book of Rev. talks about the martyrs saved during the tribulation.

 

[Amy.G]

TT, I did not read nor see the Left Behind books/movies, but I don't see why people can't be saved after the rapture. If one believes in a pre-trib rapture, then there are passages that indicate people can be saved during it. In fact, I think the book of Rev. talks about the martyrs saved during the tribulation.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I understand this to mean that when the Antichrist comes on the scene, those who were not raptured will be unable to be saved because God will send them delusion as a judgment against them because they did not believe the gospel during the church age.

The ones who will be saved are the Jews who finally believe in Christ as their promised Messiah.

 

[Marcia]

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I understand this to mean that when the Antichrist comes on the scene, those who were not raptured will be unable to be saved because God will send them delusion as a judgment against them because they did not believe the gospel during the church age.

The ones who will be saved are the Jews who finally believe in Christ as their promised Messiah.

But this is different from saying no one will be saved after the rapture, which is the statement I disagreed with. Your post supports what I was saying.

 

[Amy.G]

But this is different from saying no one will be saved after the rapture, which is the statement I disagreed with. Your post supports what I was saying.

:thumbsup: Gotcha.

 

[OldRegular]

The ones who will be saved are the Jews who finally believe in Christ as their promised Messiah.

Are you saying that God shows partiality in that only Jews can be saved during the so-called rapture.

Acts 10:34-36
34. Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35. But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: [he is Lord of all:]

Romans 10:12-21
12. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Where In Scripture does it say only Jews can be saved after the so-called rapture? I would love to see it. In fact I would like to see Scripture showing that there is a rapture followed by a 7 year tribulation.

 

[Amy.G]

Are you saying that God shows partiality in that only Jews can be saved during the so-called rapture.

I'm saying that's what I've read of the Pre-mil position. I'm still studying it all out.

 

[OldRegular]

I'm saying that's what I've read of the Pre-mil position. I'm still studying it all out.

Actually Amy you are talking about the dispensational pre-tribulation position which is much different than the historical premillennial position.

I am simply asking for Scripture, from anyone, that shows the removal of the Church prior to a so-called seven year gRRRRreat tribulation.

 

[Amy.G]

Actually Amy you are talking about the dispensational pre-tribulation position which is much different than the historical premillennial position.

I am simply asking for Scripture, from anyone, that shows the removal of the Church prior to a so-called seven year gRRRRreat tribulation.

:laugh: I can't even get the names right. I think I have a lot more studying to do. :tongue3:

 

[tinytim]

!

TT, I did not read nor see the Left Behind books/movies, but I don't see why people can't be saved after the rapture. If one believes in a pre-trib rapture, then there are passages that indicate people can be saved during it. In fact, I think the book of Rev. talks about the martyrs saved during the tribulation.

Yes, I agree with you..

But what I am saying is..

What IF we are wrong... and there is no pretrib rapture.. no trib.. because it may have already happened..

Then if someone watched LB, and thought, "I'll just wait".. well then there would be no chance...

I know I am not stating my case very well, because I am a pretrib dispie myself.. so it is hard to argue against myself... uh....... yeah...

:tongue3:

Let's forget I jumped into this discussion.. I must be losing brain cells!! LOL:laugh:

 

[OldRegular]

:laugh: I can't even get the names right. I think I have a lot more studying to do. :tongue3:

Amy

The following will give a summary of the 4 major eschatological views:

http://home.att.net/~nathan.wilson/eschtlgy.htm

However, this does not tell the complete story of the difference between the dispensational theology and Covenant theology.

The book The Bible and the Future by Anthony A. Hoekema presents a very good discussion of the current eschatological views within the Church. He writes from a Covenant Theological viewpoint but I believe he is very objective.

The book Understanding Dispensationalists by Vern S. Poythress presents some important information on the difference between dispensational and covenant theology.

The book Dispensationalism by Charles Ryrie gives a very brief description of dispensational theology with some comments on covenant theology.

I suspect the book by Poythress would be the best for initial study. He really is quite fair. Something that a lot of people do not understand is that there is much more to dispensational theology than their view on the end times.

Most of the books I have on covenant or reformed theology are quite long. I use them mostly for reference. I believe the 3 volume series by Martyn Lloyd-Jones would be the easiest to read since it is actually a series of sermons presented in England after WWII.