GOD AND FATHER OF JESUS CHRIST

[Walter]

yes, as they have another God of their making, and hold that one must speak in tongues and must be water baptized just in name of Jesus to be really saved, so another gospel

Thank you for your reply. I am not that familiar with their doctrines. I know they believe that being baptized in Jesus name (only) is part of their teachings. I know some Assembly of God churches insist that speaking in tongues is a sign of a true believer and my neighbors have a real emphasis upon it. I have leaned toward thinking that they are badly confused on the nature of God and hold to the same error as Arius did.

I find it interesting that in my town we have a United Pentecostal church on one side of the street that holds to Oneness theology and an Apostolic Pentecostal church across from them that is Trinitarian (according to the sign on their church). Most protestant Apostolic churches I have known of are Oneness so this one is unusual. I suspect this Trinitarian one baptizes using the biblical model but I don't know where they stand on the necessity of baptism for salvation.

I also suspect it is very difficult for many Christians who aren't that familiar with Oneness teaching to see these people being outside of the Body of Christ. As I said, I recognize the fruits of The Spirit in them and they claim a faith and trust in Jesus for their salvation.

Another, question for you that is off topic. Do you consider Church of Christ members to be non-Christian for their belief that baptism is necessary for salvation? Do you consider this another gospel? I think you already covered SDA.

 

[JesusFan]

Thank you for your reply. I am not that familiar with their doctrines. I know they believe that being baptized in Jesus name (only) is part of their teachings. I know some Assembly of God churches insist that speaking in tongues is a sign of a true believer and my neighbors have a real emphasis upon it. I have leaned toward thinking that they are badly confused on the nature of God and hold to the same error as Arius did.

I find it interesting that in my town we have a United Pentecostal church on one side of the street that holds to Oneness theology and an Apostolic Pentecostal church across from them that is Trinitarian (according to the sign on their church). Most protestant Apostolic churches I have known of are Oneness so this one is unusual. I suspect this Trinitarian one baptizes using the biblical model but I don't know where they stand on the necessity of baptism for salvation.

I also suspect it is very difficult for many Christians who aren't that familiar with Oneness teaching to see these people being outside of the Body of Christ. As I said, I recognize the fruits of The Spirit in them and they claim a faith and trust in Jesus for their salvation.

Another, question for you that is off topic. Do you consider Church of Christ members to be non-Christian for their belief that baptism is necessary for salvation? Do you consider this another gospel? I think you already covered SDA.

I think that their official stance would be adding works to grace, but that many are still saved despite that error by grace of God, as while they error on water baptism, still have right God

 

[Walter]

I think that their official stance would be adding works to grace, but that many are still saved despite that error by grace of God, as while they error on water baptism, still have right God

Thanks again for responding. I believe that way about many different Christian sects. If a person has the right relationship with Christ, that is what matters to God. Having errors in doctrine or misunderstandings about scripture is not something preventing a person from being saved.

 

[Ben Yissaachar]

​	John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto Him, The LORD of me and The God of me.
​	YESHUA saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου

Ho Kyrios mou kai ho Theos mou

The LORD of me and The God of me

​	Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Spirit hath made you overseers, to feed the Ekklesia of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood.

 

[Charlie24]

John 1:1 is YOUR idea that Jesus has always existed? Really? Look at the word that I bolded and enlarged at verse 1. It clearly says the one referred to as the Word aka Jesus had a beginning -- meaning he has not always existed.

I will address your second scripture in a separate post.

The Word has always existed, but Jesus, referring to His humanity, did have a beginning.

We know that the Word became flesh. Whatever the Word was, assumed to be a Spirit as is Father, He has no beginning.

 

[Ben1445]

When Thomas declared Jesus to be his Lord and God, are you going to take the position as every other JW that Jesus was not accepting the title of God, but rather was listening to Thomas take the name of the Lord in vain and say nothing to stop Thomas from sinning?
Jesus accepted the title of Lord and God because He is. Were He not, He would have refused the name being used to describe Him, or rebuked Thomas for taking the Lord’s name in vain. At the very least Jesus is good and would not have let that go without correction.
I have never heard an acceptable answer for Jesus allowing people to reverence Him as deity if He is not.

 

[Charlie24]

John 1:1 says nothing about "Jesus, referring to His humanity." It says point blank "In the beginning was the Word...." That was with reference to Jesus' heavenly existence when he was with God (the Father). But that's the least of your problems. Look at what it says further down in the same chapter 1 of John.

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, being full of grace and truth: and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father." (John 1:14 -- Worsley New Testament)


QUESTION TO CHARLIE24: Do you understand the meaning of the word begotten?

The author of Hebrews makes it clear that The Son of God had no beginning of days or end of life, when he compared Melchisedec as a type of Christ.

Heb. 7:1-4

"For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

 

[Charlie24]

Charlie24:

Your cherry-picked verses do not help your argument. You are ignoring the fact that Mel·chizʹe·dek, king of Saʹlem, was human and therefore he obviously had a father and a mother. In other words, Hebrews 7:3, for which I kept the quotation, does not literally mean Mel·chizʹe·dek, king of Saʹlem did not have beginning.

Or are you telling those reading this thread that Mel·chizʹe·dek, king of Saʹlem did not have end of life. Tell us, is Mel·chizʹe·dek, king of Saʹlem still alive?

Well, obviously you don't understand the reason for the comparison making Melchisedec a type of Christ in the eternal Priesthood.

Or the connection with Abraham after the "slaughter of the kings" when he met Melchisedec.

Melchisedec was purposely intended by God to be a type of Christ as High Priest in the book of Hebrews.

I feel that the long explanation is not worth my time seeing you will make jokes of it.

 

[David Lamb]

John 1:1 is YOUR idea that Jesus has always existed? Really? Look at the word that I bolded and enlarged at verse 1. It clearly says the one referred to as the Word aka Jesus had a beginning -- meaning he has not always existed.

I will address your second scripture in a separate post.

It doesn't "clearly say" that the Word had a beginning. It says that in the beginning, the Word existed. To say that it means that the Word had a beginning is no different to saying tat the words of Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth," must somehow mean that God had a beginning.

 

[Ben1445]

Ben1445:

Your reliance on the words of Thomas, an imperfect man, is the behavior of a drowning person snatching at straws. Don't forget, when Thomas made that comment, it was with reference to the resurrected Jesus--meaning Jesus literally died. Scripture says God cannot die.


"Only God lives forever! And he lives in light that no one can come near. No human has ever seen God or ever can see him. God will be honored, and his power will last forever. Amen." (1 Timothy 6:16 -- Contemporary English Version)

1 Timothy 6 CEV

I wasn’t relying on Thomas. I was relying on Jesus. You are worried about what Thomas said. You have not paid attention to Jesus. It is no wonder that you do not know Him.

 

[Ben1445]

Ben1445:

Colossians 1:15 says Jesus was the first "creature" to be born. Do you understand the meaning of the word creature? That it's with reference to something created?

Do you comprehend God?
When was Jesus born?
How can He be the firstborn of every creature if He is born thousands of years after Adam with many generations between them?
Let’s actually look at Colossians1. It is the answer to your question. And instead of cherry picking your verse out of context, let’s look at the context. I color coded everything and enlarged certain very important references to Jesus that should help you understand that Jesus is the person being referred to. If you’re having trouble comprehending who the pronouns are referring to, find a grammar teacher who can help you. I tried to make it clear. There is no excuse for denying that Jesus is God except for willful ignorance, which is not ignorance. It is to reject the Person of the Son of God.

Colossians 1:12-21
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Hebrews 1:1-3
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


God made the world. Jesus made the world. Jesus and God are the same.

We are reconciled to God. We are reconciled to Jesus Christ. Jesus and God are the same.

The fullness of the Godhead is in God. The fullness of the Godhead is in Jesus Christ. Jesus and God are the same.

Jesus is the express image of God. Not a copy. Not a likeness. He is the very image of God. He is the invisible God expressed visibly. Jesus and God are the same.

 

[37818]

Jesus Christ in not the Original GOD but only the Mirror Image of Original GOD Whom we call Father.

2 John 1:9, Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

John 14:6, Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 1:9, That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

1 John 1:5, This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Hebrews 1:3, Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

John 1:3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

[Oseas3]

Hebrews 1:3, Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Perfect.

JESUS being the brightness of the Word, GOD Father,

and the EXPRESS IMAGE of the Word, i.e. IMAGE of the Person of GOD the Father,->John the Baptist, the angel of the Lord, said:->No man hath seen GOD at any time(GOD is Spirit, the Word is GOD->John 4:24 combined with John 6:63),

the only begotten Son-JESUS-, which was in the bosom of the Father,

He-JESUS->the Word made flesh-> hath declared Him->declared GOD Father, the Word<--John 1:18,

and upholding all things by the Word of His Power-> the Word is from everlasting to everlasting,-> 2000 years ago the Son, the Word made flesh (no more in the bosom of the Word, the Father), said :-> John 5:17-> My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. -> I and my Father are one->.John 10:30,
-
therefore, when JESUS had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: -> Hebrews 1:8 -> 8 But unto the Son->unto JESUS -> He-> the Word, GOD Father - , saith,->Thy throne, O God->O JESUS,-> is for ever and ever: a Sceptre of righteousness is the Sceptre of thy Kingdom. -> Here GOD Father calls His Son JESUS as GOD->let it be very clear.-> John 5:30-32: ->JESUS said: 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father ->the Word, GOD Father, ->which hath sent me. 31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another that beareth witness of me;->the Father-> and I know that the witness which He witnesseth of me is true.

Matthew 11:27 - JESUS said:-> no MAN knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any MAN the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

1John 5:7->7 For there are three that TESTIFY in heaven(haven? Ephesians 1:3-10, and so on), the Father->(the Word, GOD Father), the Word->(the Word made flesh-JESUS), and the Holy Spirit ->(who is not a ghost as is written in English language, but a person->John 15:26 combined with John 16:12-15 and Revelation 11:4, take a look): and these three are One.

To the only wise GOD our Saviour, be Glory and Majesty, Dominion and Power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:25

GOD bless