God and The Will Of Man

[J.D.]

Helen: Therefore there should be no punishment for those who cannot help what they do!

Bible: Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

Helen: who has loved all of us equally

Bible: Rom 9:13 ...Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated Ps 5:5 ...thou hatest all workers of iniquity

Helen: Reading some of the Calvinist posts I am becoming convinced we are worshiping different deities.

Bible: II Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

 

[webdog]

We've been through the hebrew and greek definition of the word "hate" (sane, miseou) numerous times here on the BB. It does not always carry the same definition as we know "hate" in english.

 

[J.D.]

Webdog, the state was that God love every one THE SAME. If hate means "love less", then he love them LESS.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by webdog:
Calvinisms 101 speaks out of both sides of it's mouth. If man is free to choose (definition of selecting between TWO or more things) whatever he desires...God is an option.

It's all about inclination. If you hate broccoli enough, you will never "choose" to eat broccoli. That doesn't mean someone is forcing you like a puppet not to eat broccoli. That doesn't mean someone has taken away your "choice" to eat broccoli.

The simple fact is that you're never going to choose to eat broccoli because you hate it so much. That's your inclination, and you choose according to your inclination.

That's the condition of fallen man. We hate God so much that we will never choose Him. It doesn't mean we're being manipulated like puppets not to choose God. It doesn't mean that the choice has been taken away from us. But given our inclination, we'll never choose God.

The only way we'll ever choose God is if God first changes our inclination.

"And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live."

 

[J.D.]

God is good, man is evil.

God "influences" evil man to repent.

Man won't repent without a supernatural miracle from God, to whome be glory and praise forever

Acts 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
Calvinisms 101 speaks out of both sides of it's mouth. If man is free to choose (definition of selecting between TWO or more things) whatever he desires...God is an option.

It's all about inclination. If you hate broccoli enough, you will never "choose" to eat broccoli. That doesn't mean someone is forcing you like a puppet not to eat broccoli. That doesn't mean someone has taken away your "choice" to eat broccoli.

The simple fact is that you're never going to choose to eat broccoli because you hate it so much. That's your inclination, and you choose according to your inclination.

That's the condition of fallen man. We hate God so much that we will never choose Him. It doesn't mean we're being manipulated like puppets not to choose God. It doesn't mean that the choice has been taken away from us. But given our inclination, we'll never choose God.

The only way we'll ever choose God is if God first changes our inclination.

"And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." </font>[/QUOTE]Your broccoli illustration is pure speculation, and falls flat on it's face. I used to "hate" broccoli, and then one day out of curiosity (and hunger) decided to try it again at a pot luck dinner. I now love it. Nobody convinced me to try it, or changed my taste buds.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by webdog:
Your broccoli illustration is pure speculation, and falls flat on it's face. I used to "hate" broccoli, and then one day out of curiosity (and hunger) decided to try it again at a pot luck dinner. I now love it. Nobody convinced me to try it, or changed my taste buds.

LOL. Leave it to free willers to ignore the PURPOSE of the illustration and analogy and focus on the analogy itself. My bad. I should have known better.

 

[webdog]

I hear the same thing from the other side with my analogies. All's fair in love and war!

 

[Helen]

JD, how do you know fallen man does not desire God?

 

[J.D.]

Originally posted by Helen:
JD, how do you know fallen man does not desire God?

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Helen:
[QB] It does appear as if they CHOSE, doesn't it?

Folks, if the fatalism of Calvinism is correct, here is what happens:

You are either saved or you aren't. There is no way out of either position. The poor suckers who have not been predestined to salvation are doomed to eternal torment no matter what they do or don't do; no matter what they want or don't want. Likewise, those predestined to eternal bliss can do or say anything and that won't change their destiny either.

But look -- no one can do or say anything, according to this doctrine, that is not predetermined by God. So the very word 'choice' has no meaning whatsoever. Laws themselves mean nothing as each man and woman and child has had his actions predetermined by God from all eternity. Therefore there should be no punishment for those who cannot help what they do!

But understand that I was predetermined to think logically this way and those who oppose me were predetermined to oppose it, regardless of logic.

In the same way, they go out and preach the Gospel to a world that is predestined NOT to accept it so that that world may have even more damnation in judgment.

That is not only illogical, it is the decree of a deity I do not know. It is not the God of the Bible; it is a twisted and horrid caracature invented by cruel and unloving men who are thinking they can force others to obey what, by their predestined natures, they cannot! That is what Calvin did in Geneva. He was the epitome of the cruelty and legality of the Calvinist ideas.

The God I know, the God I worship and have given my life to is the God who gave His Life for me and for all of us; who has loved all of us equally and given all of us a way out of hell into eternal communion with Him. We have the free choice to accept or refuse this gift -- this incredible, costly, eternal gift -- from Him. Having done nothing to deserve it, nothing to accomplish it, we are nevertheless in the incredible position of being offered His unconditional acceptance through Jesus Christ our Lord and God because of His love and mercy.

He has put into us a sense of justice and fairness that is even apparent in children so that we will know from the start that His judgments are right and just and fair, and that no man has an excuse because ALL men, each and every one, has had a real and possible choice between the truth and the lie in his life.

That is the God I worship. Reading some of the Calvinist posts I am becoming convinced we are

Great post. Let me ask if there are any calvinist agree God causes everything or God does not cause everything? I know Johnp stands that God causes everything, including sin. Now if you don't believe that way then man has free will to choose to do evil or good without God. Good being helping another human being, not a spiritual good work that last for eternity?

What degree are you calvinist is what I am asking.
God allows man free choice or God causes everything to come about as it does?

 

[J.D.]

Originally posted by Helen:
JD, how do you know fallen man does not desire God?

oops on that last one.

Anyway, I tell you what Helen - since this has been done so many times by so many people - rather than me pasting in or listing Romans 3:10 and 3:23 etc. etc.; allow me to turn it back on you. How do you know that any fallen man, that is, ANY UNREGENERATE PERSON, DOES desire God?

 

[Calvibaptist]

Folks, we have philosophical problems on both sides. The philosophical (I did not say biblical) problems of Calvinism have been very articulately detailed by Timtoolman.

The philosophical (I did not say biblica) problems of free-willism seems to me to be along these lines

1) God, although called sovereign, is not really sovereign at all. He has no control over the choices of man because that would make man the puppet of calvinism.

2) Man, although not called sovereign, is actually the one who determines his destiny, meaning that he is, in fact, sovereign. God sits back like a Jr. High kid at a dance hoping someone will come up to him and ask him out on the dance floor (I have actually heard this illustration used in a sermon by a popular preacher).

3) God becomes a reactionary God that was surprised by man's sin and had to come up with Plan B in a holy huddle of the trinity up in heaven after Eve and Adam ate the fruit. Then He had to hope that the Jews would in fact reject their Messiah, hope that Judas would betray Him, hope that the Romans would be complicit in the crucifixion, and then hope someone would take advantage of His offer. This is not the deity I worship either. This is not the God of Scripture.

4)God creates millions of people who He knows will not choose Him of their own free will (because of His foreknowledge, of course) when He could have saved them an eternity of torment by never creating them in the first place. You see, free-willers have the same philosophical problem as calvinists here.

5) God foreknows all the free will decisions of man. This is a big problem philosophically. If God foreknows the decisions a person will make, then those decisions are predetermined to happen in that way, correct? There is no possibility that those decisions could be made differently. If the decision is predetermined, who predetermined it? Obviously not man, because he is not outside time and space. Man could not go back to the "foundation of the world" to predetermine his decisions so that God's foreknowledge could kick in. There are two other possibilities as to who predetermined the decisions that God foreknows man will make. The one is blind fate, which I don't believe exists. This is a true form of fatalism, and has nothing to do with Calvinism or free-willism. The only other option as to who or what predetermined the freewill decisions of man is God. This is Calvinism.

If you take foreknowledge to it's natural conclusion, you end up with Calvinism. The only other option is to re-define foreknowledge. One recent attempt at that is Open Theism, which denies that God knows everything because man's decisions can not be foreknown or else they would be pre-determined. This view is gaining popularity, but is very unbiblical.

6) Whatever it takes to get a positive response to the gospel is ok. Now, I know most of you on this board would not agree with this premise, and you probably don't think along these lines in your ministry, but follow me on this one. Why do we have the ridiculous stuff going on in the name of getting the gospel out? Why do we have churches that are now building movie theaters so that members can invite their friends without them having to actually go into the service? Why do we have people like Joel Osteen and others who are psychological preachers rather than truly preaching the word? I lay it at the feet of popular free-willism. A positive response to God is seen as more important than speaking the truth and getting rejected.

7) The problem of those who have never heard doesn't really have a good response. They are punished eternally for never believing in a Christ they have never heard of. They did not have the free-will option to choose Christ, because the gospel never came to them.

8) Those who have exercised their free-will to choose Christ have the right to stand up in the judgement and say, "Yep, I did it. You chose wrong, but I chose right. Look at me." This may seem ludricrous, and I know none of you would even think of doing this, but this is the very reason 1 Corinthians 1 tells us that God is the one who chose, not you. So that no one could boast before God.

As you see, there are many problems with free-willism that are a result of the though processes that go into the movement. These, like the last post from Timtoolman, are not biblically based responses, but are logical conclusions that play themselves out in real-life situations.

 

[Paul of Eugene]

Actually, both sides are right.

Free will in its physical manifestation is given us throught the medium of the uncertainty principle of quantum mechanics.

The quantum mechanical view of the universe indicates that actually there are an infinite number of alternate universes, all equally real.

The personal implication is that there are multiple alternatives of ourseleves, some in which we chose to accept God's salvation, others in which we did not.

So every body is both saved and lost by eternal destiny AND from their personal choice.

From the point of view of a single universe (which is all any of us mortals can see) we have that free will and we chose one way or another.

From the point of view of all the multi-universal options (all of them freely open to the mind of God) they all exist equally before His view.

Maybe. Don't hold me to any of this as an article of faith. Just a speculation. But I didn't want people to leave out this possible alternative in discussing the situation.

 

[Bluefalcon]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
man's decisions can not be foreknown or else they would be pre-determined.

1 Sam. 23:12-13 actually demonstrates that God's foreknowledge does not predetermine man's decisions or events. In fact, in this case his foreknowledge of an event produced the exact opposite of his foreknowledge.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Helen:
You may not understand this, but He, being outside of time (having created it) gave me total freedom of choice regarding how to respond to Him. However since He knows the end from the beginning, He also knew what I would choose. Nevertheless, the choice was mine.

Not easy to wrap a human brain around that but, after all, He is God...

Hi Helen,

No, that's not easy to understand, but I also believe that it is true.

BUT, you did not answer my question. So would you mind giving me an answer? Here's the question again so you don't have to hunt for it. (I did change it a little.)

Everything that God knew would happen when He created the world will happen. If He knew when He created the world that you would choose to believe then you most certainly will choose to believe, and nothing can change that, not even you. If He knew when He created the world that you would choose to not believe then you most certainly will choose to not believe, and nothing can change that, not even you.

Do you believe this? Yes or no, and then if you want to elaborate please feel free. Thanks in advance.

 

[Bluefalcon]

Whatever, your post is completely circular, and says nothing other than what will happen will happen. What is not considered is that God knows what might happen. Sometimes God's knowledge of what might happen contributes to the actuality of what would not happen had he not made known what might have happened.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Bluefalcon:
Whatever, your post is completely circular, and says nothing other than what will happen will happen. What is not considered is that God knows what might happen. Sometimes God's knowledge of what might happen contributes to the actuality of what would not happen had he not made known what might have happened.

It is not circular at all. Either God does not have perfect foreknowledge of the future, or all of the future (including our free choices) is set in stone. Of course, most non-Calvinists are smart enough to know what would happen if they affirm either possibility, so they usually ignore the question or throw out red herrings. Very few will give a straight answer.

If there's a third possibility I would love for someone to show me, but so far no one has.

Of course God knows what might happen. He also knows out of all things that might happen which things will happen. Do you think God didn't know without a doubt that David would break out the ephod in 1 Sam. 23?

 

[Bluefalcon]

Because God has foreknowledge of what does not happen, as in 1 Sam. 23:12-13, then his foreknowledge does not predetermine anything. Something else in his character might, but not his foreknowledge. David chose to use God's foreknowledge to change the future.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Bluefalcon:
Because God has foreknowledge of what does not happen, as in 1 Sam. 23:12-13, then his foreknowledge does not predetermine anything. Something else in his character might, but not his foreknowledge. David chose to use God's foreknowledge to change the future.

Are you saying that God was wrong?

God's foreknowledge of what would happen but does not happen does not disprove His perfect foreknowledge of what will happen.