Bluefalcon
Member
Agreed. But his foreknowledge did not predetermine anything.
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God and The Will Of Man
- Thread starter Rippon
- Start date
Bluefalcon
Member
Agreed. And so this contributes nothing to the debate of man's free will.
Calvibaptist
New Member
1 Sam. 23:12-13 actually demonstrates that God's foreknowledge does not predetermine man's decisions or events. In fact, in this case his foreknowledge of an event produced the exact opposite of his foreknowledge. </font>[/QUOTE]OK, not to read into the story too much, but David asks God some hypothetical questions:
1) Will Saul come down to Keilah to get me?
Answer from God - Yes
2) If I stay here, will the men of Keilah turn me over?
Answer from God - Yes
Based on God's answer, David departed.
I fail to see where this proves that God's foreknowledge was mistaken and actually caused the exact opposite of what He foreknew.
Calvibaptist
New Member
I said His foreknowledge predetermines everything. PHILOSOPHICALLY. If something is foreknown to happen, it is definite that it will happen. In that sense, it is predetermined. Actually, I believe that God's foreknowledge is based on His predetermination.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! The thing is, the arminian system of contingent foreknowledge is completely circular, and it's a TIGHT circle.
And blue, did you hear what you said? Did you mean to say that? God knows what might happen? If God foreknew that I might get saved, how then did he predestinate me to be conformed to the image of his son?
Well, I thought the implications for theology would be clear, but I guess I need to spell them out. Since all that God foreknows will come to pass, will indeed come to pass, none of those things can be changed. So Helen's objection that a determined choice cannot be a free choice goes out the window. That's why she won't answer yes or no - she see the implications for her theology.
I contend that our choices are both determined and free. We all freely choose sin unless and until God changes our natures, after which we freely choose Christ. The only possible alternative is that God does not perfectly know the future.
I didn't respond because I wasn't here. I have been formatting a paper of my husband's for a publication.
The fact that Calvinists cannot understand that God has given us free, real choices and yet still knows the end from the beginning is not something I can fix. But that is the way it is.
The God of the Bible doesn't fit inside the Calvinist box and they can't deal with that, so the major theme of the Bible is ignored. He is not a God of love in Calvinism, but a deity of capricious and vicious choices of his own.
I was asked if there were any unregenerate people who desire God. Absolutely. The various religions are full of them. Mormons, JW's, Muslims, Christadelphians -- the majority of the members desire God, but they just don't know how to find Him and they have, instead, believed the deception of these false religions.
Whatever, the fact that a person has a sin nature does not make sin a permanent choice in all situations. Many people obey the laws when they don't want to. Charities exist because people want to help others; they want to do what is right. They are choosing, despite having a sin nature, to do what they know is right. It won't save them, but it sure puts the lie to Calvinism.
The fact that Calvinists cannot understand that God has given us free, real choices and yet still knows the end from the beginning is not something I can fix. But that is the way it is.
The God of the Bible doesn't fit inside the Calvinist box and they can't deal with that, so the major theme of the Bible is ignored. He is not a God of love in Calvinism, but a deity of capricious and vicious choices of his own.
I was asked if there were any unregenerate people who desire God. Absolutely. The various religions are full of them. Mormons, JW's, Muslims, Christadelphians -- the majority of the members desire God, but they just don't know how to find Him and they have, instead, believed the deception of these false religions.
Whatever, the fact that a person has a sin nature does not make sin a permanent choice in all situations. Many people obey the laws when they don't want to. Charities exist because people want to help others; they want to do what is right. They are choosing, despite having a sin nature, to do what they know is right. It won't save them, but it sure puts the lie to Calvinism.
Bluefalcon
Member
God knew what would happen if David did not leave, and he knew what would happen if David did leave. God foreknew that David would choose to leave based on God's foreknowledge of what would happen if he did not leave. God knew what David would choose. Such does not mean that God made David so choose.
Whoever said that God's foreknowledge is dependent on his predetermination at least is a little more logical in his thought processes.
Whoever said that God's foreknowledge is dependent on his predetermination at least is a little more logical in his thought processes.
Bluefalcon
Member
In the Deuteronomical discourses, God foreknew what would happen if Israel obeyed him, and he knew what would happen in Israel did not obey him. Israel chose to disobey and so fulfilled the foreknowledge of that course of action. This is not so difficult to understand. That he knew they would actually disobey him does not mean that he made them disobey him.
Why does this seem so simple, yet there are pages and pages of debate. I must be missing something.
As a father of my kids I am soveren in my house. I make the rules, I say what goes on. But because I love my kids and want them to learn and grow I allow them to make some choices for themself. I let my daughter decide if she wants the pink shirt or the green. She will choose the pink, I know that. It was still her choice, even though I knew what she would choose, and I am still soveren in my home because if I wanted her wear green I would make her. I let her choose if she wants chicken noodle soup or PB&J sandwich. She will choose PB&J. But if she has already had enough suger then I dont give her a choice.
So what is wrong with my analogy. Why cant God be soveren and still alow us to choose within his bounds. And how would forcing us to choose him bring him glory. Would it not bring him more glory to have us choose him on our own instead of forcing us to choose him.
As a father of my kids I am soveren in my house. I make the rules, I say what goes on. But because I love my kids and want them to learn and grow I allow them to make some choices for themself. I let my daughter decide if she wants the pink shirt or the green. She will choose the pink, I know that. It was still her choice, even though I knew what she would choose, and I am still soveren in my home because if I wanted her wear green I would make her. I let her choose if she wants chicken noodle soup or PB&J sandwich. She will choose PB&J. But if she has already had enough suger then I dont give her a choice.
So what is wrong with my analogy. Why cant God be soveren and still alow us to choose within his bounds. And how would forcing us to choose him bring him glory. Would it not bring him more glory to have us choose him on our own instead of forcing us to choose him.
I have used analogies also with my lion illustration for example . However , it has been established by Scripture that the natural person ( the unregenerate ) will not choose the Lord . And He does not force Himself on anyone . He melts their hearts , he softens that callousness . He is God , He does those things because he is all-powerful in ALL realms . Why is it so hard to understand -- ye of little faith -- that the Lord is in-charge of salvation .? It is not a separate area where He keeps His hands off to allow for mankind's independence .
Absolutly the Lord is in charge of salvation. But like you said "he does not force himself on anyone, he melts their hearts." But two points
If he is not forcing himself one anyone then the ones he is wooing, melting, may resist. And they may resist to the point of not accepting.
Two dont you think he offers to woo melt everyones hearts. But because he will not force himself on anyone most resist and do not come to him?
The first chapter of Romans speaks about nobody having an excuse because God has made Himself known to all. It also speaks of unrighoutos men suppressing the truth. I think God gives every person enough "truth" to know Him. He wants everybody to come to Him, but He knows who will and He also knows most will not.
In a word , no . He has set apart some and only some for Himself . Before the foundation of the world He chose those that would be in Him . In love he predestined ...
God doesn't operate under Democratic principles . There is no general election . He chooses some for eternal life . He ordains others for eternal condemnation . There is no equal chance , level playing field , possibility , potential , everyone gets an opportunity thing going on here in God 's economy . He causes the ones He wants to come to Himself . The elect will come to Him . He chooses who He will love . He not only sees , but decrees .
God doesn't operate under Democratic principles . There is no general election . He chooses some for eternal life . He ordains others for eternal condemnation . There is no equal chance , level playing field , possibility , potential , everyone gets an opportunity thing going on here in God 's economy . He causes the ones He wants to come to Himself . The elect will come to Him . He chooses who He will love . He not only sees , but decrees .
What makes some different then others? And what is the point? If there is no choice why would he not just take the ones he wants and send the ones he does not care about to hell? Why the game?
Does making people beleve and worship bring him glory? Like a school yard bully, it only proves He is powerfull.
On the otherhand creatures choosing him freely over the plesures of the flesh. That brings him glory.
Does making people beleve and worship bring him glory? Like a school yard bully, it only proves He is powerfull.
On the otherhand creatures choosing him freely over the plesures of the flesh. That brings him glory.
DeeJay, you are presenting the points very well. Same points a lot of us have presented before (including the parenting one, which I have used many times), but they are not going to listen. However they are not really the ones you or I are talking to. There are a lot of other readers who never post who are confused and upset by Calvinism ("You mean I can love my child more than God does?") and they are the ones we are reassuring about God's love and offer to each and every man who ever lived regarding salvation.
Thank you for your help here.
Thank you for your help here.
You still haven't answered the question.
I for one have affirmed that "God has given us free, real choices and yet still knows the end from the beginning" and yet you keep writing as if I haven't. You keep missing that point. Once you get that point your theology will fall flat.
Man is in sin "BECAUSE" of choices man made, not God.
Calvin doesn't accept this fact, blaming Adam's sin on God's predestination, and not only Adam's sin but also "ALL SIN" since.
The "Possibility" that this world "could/would" be a much safer, happier world "IF" men chose to live under God's laws "DOES NOT EXIST" under calvin's doctrine,
man doesn't reap what man sows, but what God has sowed.
Jesus was "foreordained" before the foundation of the world, because of "Foreknowledge",
but Adam's sin "WAS NOT DUE TO PREDESTINATION", but a "CHOICE" given to Adam, and neither is the future of the world determined by "predestination", it can be changed by choices people make, the "Stewardship" God gave man over the earth is what calvin denies.
Predestination, Sovereign will can't be changed, Foreknowledge can change.
Ge 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Ex 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
If you'll nail down the definition of sovereign will/predestination Vs. Foreknowledge, and stop letting them "float around" to mean whatever, you might see the flaws in calvin.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Calvin denies that God loved Pharoah, but scripture says otherwise.
Our salvation doesn't depend on "election", but on "OUR FAITH" in Jesus.
Another point calvin denies.