God and The Will Of Man

[webdog]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
("You mean I can love my child more than God does?")

I do not understand why non-Calvinists have to be so dishonest about this. This is not what Calvinism teaches at all. But once your emotions are doing your thinking I guess this is where you end up.

Tell me something, did God love Pharoah more than Pharoah's mother did? </font>[/QUOTE]What's dishonest about this statement? If you have a reprobate mother loving her reprobate child...and you believe God hates the reprobate, how is this NOT true?

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by webdog:
What's dishonest about this statement? If you have a reprobate mother loving her reprobate child...and you believe God hates the reprobate, how is this NOT true?

First, why do you think that I believe that God hates the reprobate?

Second, my mother would have done anything she could to keep me from harm. Under Helen's theology (and maybe yours) God will not do all that He could to keep the lost from harm. So who loves more in that theology?

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Helen:
I was asked if there were any unregenerate people who desire God. Absolutely. The various religions are full of them. Mormons, JW's, Muslims, Christadelphians -- the majority of the members desire God, but they just don't know how to find Him and they have, instead, believed the deception of these false religions.

Helen, you bring up a very good question. Are there people (anyone) who is unregenerate and really seeks God? Your answer is yes. Why do you say that? Because you experience that many people are religious and say they are seeking God. Yet the Bible says at least once (Romans 3:11), which is Paul's adaptation of Psalm 14:2 and Psalm 53:2, that there is no one who seeks God. The Bible's answer is a resounding no.

But what about those people who seem to be genuinely seeking God. The answer is clearly that they are not seeking for God. They are seeking for a god that they want to fulfill their sinful desires. They will look in various religions. They will look in economic achievement. They will look everywhere but to the God of the Bible as He has revealed Himself. But they are not looking for God. They are idolators.

It is not just that they don't know how to find Him. They have already rejected the truth that they have from creation and don't want to know how to find Him. God's judgement of them is false religion and sexual sin. This is the point of Romans 1. Since people have rejected the natural revelation of creation, God allows them to have what they want - a world without the true God.

"There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understand, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one."

 

[Bluefalcon]

Originally posted by whatever:
I for one have affirmed that "God has given us free, real choices and yet still knows the end from the beginning"

I believe this precisely, and so does everyone else on this board so far as I can tell.

 

[J.D.]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Helen:
I was asked if there were any unregenerate people who desire God. Absolutely. The various religions are full of them. Mormons, JW's, Muslims, Christadelphians -- the majority of the members desire God, but they just don't know how to find Him and they have, instead, believed the deception of these false religions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Helen, your post proves the very opposite of what you claim. Those who seek a false god or idol are not seeking God. If they were seeking God, they would come to Him.

John 10:3 ...and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Now there may be unawakened elect within false teachings, that have yet to be converted in time. That's why we preach the gospel to them. And in God's time, the elect will hear the voice of their saviour. It is the certain and infallable work of God.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by J.D.:
And in God's time, the elect will hear the voice of their saviour. It is the certain and infallable work of God.

Are they "elect" because of "predestination",

or because of "Foreknowledge"???

Predestination doesn't offer them a choice in the matter,

While "Foreknowledge" is only the "knowledge" of what choice they will make.

Calvin's doctrine is based on the "wrong answer" to that question.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
What's dishonest about this statement? If you have a reprobate mother loving her reprobate child...and you believe God hates the reprobate, how is this NOT true?

First, why do you think that I believe that God hates the reprobate?

Second, my mother would have done anything she could to keep me from harm. Under Helen's theology (and maybe yours) God will not do all that He could to keep the lost from harm. So who loves more in that theology? </font>[/QUOTE]So, if you don't believe God hates the reprobate, why doesn't He choose them, too? What kind of love is that? According to your theology, not only will God not "do all He can" to keep the lost from harm...He deliberately keep salvation from them? Your view of calvinism is highly unorthodox, as most believe God hates the reprobate, giving God a reason for damning them. Your view of God loving the reprobate is barbaric.

 

[DeeJay]

Calvi

Now you are confusing me (easy to do) You write the following.

It is not just that they don't know how to find Him. They have already rejected the truth that they have from creation and don't want to know how to find Him. God's judgement of them is false religion and sexual sin. This is the point of Romans 1. Since people have rejected the natural revelation of creation, God allows them to have what they want - a world without the true God.

Are you saying that every person has the truth from creation and the people in question here have rejected it. So they had a choice to follow God but rejected that option instead choosing false religions.

I am under the impresion that Calvenists would disagree with your paragraph above as it seems to have alot of mens choice in it. I am curious as to wether Ripon agrees with your assesment.

 

[Rippon]

DeeJay , God does indeed hate the reprobate . The testimony of nature rings out the fact of God being real . The testimony of their conscience telling them that they are sinners -- they know there is a judgment to come for them . God has written on the tablets of their hearts , but they reject it all . Unless the Lord had chosen them before the foundation of the world they are doomed for destruction as was Esau , Pharoah , Judas and many more documented in the Bible .

 

[DeeJay]

God has written on the tablets of their hearts , but they reject it all .

This indicates they made a choice.

Unless the Lord had chosen them before the foundation of the world they are doomed for destruction as was Esau , Pharoah , Judas and many more documented in the Bible .

Unless you are saying that God made these people reject Him.

Dont you think that all of these people you mention had the oppertunity to fall to their knees and worship God. But God knew they would not.

 

[Rippon]

Their sin is what damned them . God is not to blame . Yes , they made a choice , a wretched choice . They can only choose in one direction -- they exercise their volition , their " freedom " to disobey the Lord .

The Lord hardens hearts . But He also lets many just go their own way -- and it is on the road to destruction . However , that doesn't relieve a Christian of the responsibility of declaring the truths of Scripture to all within his/her orbit . We need to be soul-burdened for the lost . The Holy Spirit makes His spiritual arrests with the ones of God's choosing . But we do not have the discernment as to who the reprobate are . We need to just carry out the command of the Great Commission . The Lord works through us as His instruments -- channels only , blessed master ...

[ March 09, 2006, 03:46 AM: Message edited by: Rippon ]

 

[Helen]

They can only choose in one direction -- they exercise their volition , their " freedom " to disobey the Lord

This may come as a shock to you, but that is not a choice. Quit playing with words.

"Choice" means two or more things are available to the person doing the choosing. If there is only one thing available, that is not a choice.

Calvinism is a cruel, barbaric, capricious doctrine which produces the fruits of arrogance, despair, and a lack of care for others. It is entirely anti-God and anti-biblical.

 

[Rippon]

Keep shooting up that strawman dummy Helen . He has lots of holes -- good job !

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by webdog:
So, if you don't believe God hates the reprobate, why doesn't He choose them, too? What kind of love is that? According to your theology, not only will God not "do all He can" to keep the lost from harm...He deliberately keep salvation from them? Your view of calvinism is highly unorthodox, as most believe God hates the reprobate, giving God a reason for damning them. Your view of God loving the reprobate is barbaric.

I'm only pointing out that your God could save those He loves, and He doesn't, so the questions you address to me are questions that you ought to consider yourself.

I've not said that God hates the reprobate. I've not said that God loves the reprobate. I'm not talking about whether God loves the reprobate. I'm showing you that the assertion Helen made to attempt to disprove Calvinism would also disprove Helen's theology. That, plus the fact that it relies on a strawman version of Calvinism, is why it was dishonest.

 

[Andy T.]

Originally posted by Helen:
Calvinism is a cruel, barbaric, capricious doctrine which produces the fruits of arrogance, despair, and a lack of care for others. It is entirely anti-God and anti-biblical.

Helen, with words that strong, it sounds like you should be evangelizing the Calvinists on this board instead of arguing with them about the finer points of God' sovereignty and man's freedom. Because surely what you have implied above is that Calvinists are going to hell. Is that what you mean? Please clarify if that is not the case.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Rippon:
DeeJay , God does indeed hate the reprobate . The testimony of nature rings out the fact of God being real . The testimony of their conscience telling them that they are sinners -- they know there is a judgment to come for them . God has written on the tablets of their hearts , but they reject it all . Unless the Lord had chosen them before the foundation of the world they are doomed for destruction as was Esau , Pharoah , Judas and many more documented in the Bible .

1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

If scripture tell us to "love our enemies", why doesn't God love his enemies, the unbeliver???

Lu 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

Did you know that if you don't love, you sin??

Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Ga 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

16 Hereby perceive we the love of God,

Ro 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil.


God's love was manifested toward the "WHOLE WORLD" in that Jesus didn't come to condemn and die for the sins of the whole world that the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved.

Calvin doesn't recognize this as an "ACT OF LOVE", toward "ALL MEN" from a God who is no respecter of persons.

Do you really want to "conform to the image", of the god calvin describes???

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Rippon:
Keep shooting up that strawman dummy Helen . He has lots of holes -- good job !

I'm trying to decide if you're debating like a "pendulum", swinging from side to side, or like a "merry-go-round", in circles,

either way, you end up back where you started, nothing is nailed down as an "Absolute" to move the debate "forward".

If God is love, and love is the fulfilment of the law, and God is no respecter of persons,

"DID GOD LOVE THE WHOLE WORLD"??

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

YES OR NO, ONLY.

 

[Timtoolman]

"They can only choose in one direction -- they exercise their volition , their " freedom " to disobey the Lord."

Add this to my calvinist list of unreal definitions: a choice can be a choice between one thing.

 

[Helen]

Whatever, it is PRECISELY because God has provided for everyone that His anger is being poured out on those who reject the truth -- which is Him in the long run. He did everything for each of us, which is precisely why no man has an excuse.

You can't blame a dog for doing dog things. You can't blame an elephant for doing elephant things. And you can't blame an unsaved person for doing unsaved things IF HE HAS NPTION, which, under Calvinism, he does not! Because of this, Calvinism destroys the entire concept of justice regarding God, just as it has destroyed the meaning of the word 'choice.' Calvinism is fatalism: you are what you are and there's nothing you can do about it. It makes mash of the Gospel message, nonsense of evangelism, and even negates the very reason for a legal system in our cultures. It is a cruel, cruel perversion of the message of the Bible.

Andy, in Matthew 5:19 we read that those who break the law and teach others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. I pray this is all the teachers of Calvinism will have to deal with. What I fear for these teachers is that they will hear "depart from me...."

In these exchanges I am indeed evangelizing, but I know better than to try to change Rippon and co. There are a lot of people who read these forums and through the years of dealing with Calvinistic horrors, I have received quite a number of emails and PM's thanking me for helping this or that person to see the truth of what the Bible is saying regarding God's love for all of us. You see, I did not make up that problem of "Can a mother love her child more than God loves him?" That came from someone in tears who thought Calvinism was true and was afraid for her children. And it was entirely logical in terms of what Calvinism has to say. NO, God loves each of us far more than we could ever love one another.

So it is for those who are struggling with this that I continue to write and sometimes in terms as strong as I have recently used. It is in response to those who have contacted me and need the hope and encouragement which Calvinism robs them of.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
"They can only choose in one direction -- they exercise their volition , their " freedom " to disobey the Lord."

Add this to my calvinist list of unreal definitions: a choice can be a choice between one thing.

I think the "light" being shined in the "darkness" is revealing "more" than they "want" to "see".

Lu 11:35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.