God and Time, closing words of William Lane Craig

[webdog]

It's fun watching people argue over things we cannot even understand. Do you understand eternity? I don't. What is it like to not be constrained by time?

Nobody's arguing things we don't understand, we are debating things we do. Nobody claimed to understand an infinite God.

 

[dwmoeller1]

Nobody's arguing things we don't understand, we are debating things we do. Nobody claimed to understand an infinite God.

And in case it seems that my illustration is an attempt to explain God or something I don't understand, please understand that it is not. Instead, I am merely examining the logically possible to try and filter out unsound conclusions about the logically impossible.

 

[webdog]

First of all, outside of time and space is not a location. "Location" has no meaning outside of space.

Regarding pinpointing an exact location, consider this illustration...

Let's say that God is a 3-dimensional being who creates a 2 dimensional world on which beings with a 1 dimensional existence by a limited 2 dimensional perception exist. Lets say this 2 dimensional world is, from God's point of view (POV), shaped like a string/line. As 1 dimensional beings we travel down this string and perceive it as a passage through time. We have no height or depth on this string so we cannot perceive anything directly except on the point where we happen to find ourselves. We can remember the past and anticipate the future but cannot directly perceive either.

However, God, the three dimensional being who exists outside the string of creation, can still "intersect" with the string. He can, for one thing, touch the string. When He does so, He is intersecting the string of creation at multiple points on the timeline and is doing so simultaneously. So, if part of His finger intersects the point where we exist, we can perceive Him at that specific place and time. However, the fact this does not mean that we can therefore pinpoint His precise location as being at that point and time. We, being 1 dimensional beings may perceive it as such - after all we can't really conceive of anything other than 1 dimensional existence - but to argue that our perception represents reality is to make God out to be a 1 dimensional being.

Instead, God is intersecting multiple places as times (all of them actually) w/o ever being located at any of them - not located in the sense we would understand it at least.

Location can have meaning outside of space

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,

Also, if "outside of time and space is not a location", then you cannot state God exists there. I think your analogy is more on man's understanding of this mechanic than the actual mechanic.

 

[dwmoeller1]

Location can have meaning outside of space

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,

Also, if "outside of time and space is not a location", then you cannot state God exists there. I think your analogy is more on man's understanding of this mechanic than the actual mechanic.

Equivocation. The "locations" in the verse are all meant metaphorically. You seemed to be using it non-metaphorical sense. "Location" in the sense you are seem to be using it does not have meaning outside of space. So sure, God is "located" (metaphorically speaking) outside of space, but He isn't located (literally) there. Its just another illustration of the limitations of our language. Even the phrase "outside of space" is ultimately a logical absurdity.

And when I raised my point about "located" it was not to negate your position (otherwise my whole position would have to be negated for the same exact sort of 'bad' language), but to make sure this fact was clarified. So, we can talk about God being 'located' outside of time and space as long as we are clear in our minds and logic that He really isn't 'located' there at all - location having no real meaning apart from space (metaphorical meaning notwithstanding). Since your statements seemed to revolve around God being in a place, I thought it a necessary clarification.

Strictly speaking, God isn't located anywhere. His omnipresence does not mean He is located at all places, but that there is no place where He is not. Now, if God were space bound, then such a distinction would simply be semantics. But if God is not space bound, then its an important distinction (in as far as it is even accurate or meaningful). It goes back to the AMness of God.

 

[dwmoeller1]

I think your analogy is more on man's understanding of this mechanic than the actual mechanic.

Thats all it was meant to be. It merely illustrates the fact that God being at one place in time and space does not logically necessitate Him actually being located there, much less pinpointed there. I in no way claim this illustrates how it actually is - it merely examines the logical possibilities in order to illustrate that your position is not a logically necessary one. You say "If X then Y." My illustration points that that X does not necessitate Y.

 

[Darrenss1]

I agree with our being limited finite creatures bound by time, but I strongly disagree with your analysis if "an absurdity". The intuitive analysis of time (my own, not Craigs) is that time "began" when the physical universe was created ex nihlio (things that are measured by time).

In Craigs words:

"The most plausible view of the nature of time, then, is that time involves an objective distinction between past, present and future, and that temporal becoming is a real, mind independent feature of the world. It therefore follows that God is (present tense) in time. He exists now. But on the Christian doctrine of creation, the world had a beginning, though God did not. Did time exist prior to the moment of creation? Is God, existing alone without creation, timeless or temporal in such a state? I presented three arguments to show that (metric) time is finite in the past, so that God existing without the world must exist either in and amorphous time or, more plausibly, timelessly. In short, given the reality of tense and temporal becoming, the most plausible construal of divine eternity is that God is timeless without creation and temporal since creation."

Craig is describing the A-theory of time for which he supports. Basically time being linear it moves from moment to moment, the past has happened and the future does not exist or has yet to occur. I have listened to Craig for years I like his reasoning though it does not solve all the questions regarding how God knows the future (looking down the corridors of time and calculating man's responses and future events) but then again it seems to be the best explanation given what can be emperically known from mans perspective of the universe and given the bible leaves us guessing as well.

Sorry I don't have "time" to catch up on the whole thread.

Darren

 

[RAdam]

Nobody's arguing things we don't understand, we are debating things we do. Nobody claimed to understand an infinite God.

Yes you are. You are debating about whether or not God is outside of time or inhabits time, and what that all means. What is eternity? Can you explain that? Can you explain what it means to be outside of time? Can you explain how things were before the beginning of the creation? These are things we cannot understand. Debating them is pointless.

 

[webdog]

Yes you are. You are debating about whether or not God is outside of time or inhabits time, and what that all means. What is eternity? Can you explain that? Can you explain what it means to be outside of time? Can you explain how things were before the beginning of the creation? These are things we cannot understand. Debating them is pointless.

Then don't debate them...but we do know God is not bound to the very thing He created.

 

[RAdam]

Then don't debate them...but we do know God is not bound to the very thing He created.

You still haven't answered the question I asked: what is eternity? What is it like without time? What was it like before the creation?

 

[webdog]

You still haven't answered the question I asked: what is eternity? What is it like without time? What was it like before the creation?

I don't know, and never claimed to know. I said we are debating the things we do know.

 

[glfredrick]

Insert "totally apart from time and space" and your logic works. No one though (as far as i can tell) is arguing that God is totally apart from time and space in all ways. At the very least, God directly interacts with time and space by continually maintaining its existence.

So, for instance, if God exists outside of time and space but chooses to 'intersect" time and space, then He can be both omnipresent and omnitemporal by intersecting time and space at all points simultaneously. Thus He is still apart from time and space in His essence, but not apart from time and space in all ways and senses.

Exactly... God necessarily exists apart from Creation. He must. If He is bound by Creation, then He could not be the Creator. However, that does not stop God from interacting with His Creation. He can and He does.

 

[quantumfaith]

Craig is describing the A-theory of time for which he supports. Basically time being linear it moves from moment to moment, the past has happened and the future does not exist or has yet to occur. I have listened to Craig for years I like his reasoning though it does not solve all the questions regarding how God knows the future (looking down the corridors of time and calculating man's responses and future events) but then again it seems to be the best explanation given what can be emperically known from mans perspective of the universe and given the bible leaves us guessing as well.

Sorry I don't have "time" to catch up on the whole thread.

Darren

Darren, you are correct. Craig would be the first to admit he wears two hats, a philosopher(christian) and apologist. As for God "knowing" the future of "free will" creatures he apparently acknowledges and holds the position of "molinism". I have read some on this, and I am intrigued, being that I am not a "hard determinist". As of yet, I am unable to completely wrap it up intellectually. But I will keep studying the scriptures, and gifted christian thinkers. Mercy, peace and love in abundance.

 

[dwmoeller1]

Darren, you are correct. Craig would be the first to admit he wears two hats, a philosopher(christian) and apologist. As for God "knowing" the future of "free will" creatures he apparently acknowledges and holds the position of "molinism". I have read some on this, and I am intrigued, being that I am not a "hard determinist". As of yet, I am unable to completely wrap it up intellectually. But I will keep studying the scriptures, and gifted christian thinkers. Mercy, peace and love in abundance.

I want to note that determinism would have little or no meaning from a point of view that is non-time bound. So, it is logically possible that what we see inside of time see as leading logically to determinism is purely a function of being time bound. So, it is possible that the world is fully deterministic yet not at all...depending on if viewed from inside of time or outside of it.

In short, the impulse to have God as temporal after creation (besides making no sense as it requires that God be temporal in some way before creation as well) in order to avoid determinism may be unnecessary.

 

[webdog]

Exactly... God necessarily exists apart from Creation. He must. If He is bound by Creation, then He could not be the Creator. However, that does not stop God from interacting with His Creation. He can and He does.

If God decrees to be bound by His creation, as was the case in the life of Christ, it doesn't prove He exists apart from His creation.

 

[Darrenss1]

I want to note that determinism would have little or no meaning from a point of view that is non-time bound. So, it is logically possible that what we see inside of time see as leading logically to determinism is purely a function of being time bound. So, it is possible that the world is fully deterministic yet not at all...depending on if viewed from inside of time or outside of it.

There have been a lot of ho hum theories of time in the science world some of which are quite interesting such as the theory of timelessness or simultaneous time. Granted the thorough impossibility to actually reproduce or test any such theories other than it seems to work within an equation but than again, so does infinity!! Now if anyone manages to actually travel faster than the speed of light they may like to let us know whether they succeded in proving timelessness (would they age in such a state??).

I don't know how God knows the future but I don't need to, in order to feel safe that He has the universe in His hands, give me God and I'll be happy not knowing the mysteries of the universe or the mysteries of God's absolute eternal being.

Darren

 

[glfredrick]

I want to note that determinism would have little or no meaning from a point of view that is non-time bound. So, it is logically possible that what we see inside of time see as leading logically to determinism is purely a function of being time bound. So, it is possible that the world is fully deterministic yet not at all...depending on if viewed from inside of time or outside of it.

In short, the impulse to have God as temporal after creation (besides making no sense as it requires that God be temporal in some way before creation as well) in order to avoid determinism may be unnecessary.

It is interesting that the atheist naturalist position is the one of true determinism. A universe without a higher power to direct the movement must, by default, be one where each thing has a prior cause, and if we could be just find a way to measure and calculate all those causes,we could indeed determine all things. Yet, according to the Bible, God exercises His free will, and as creatures in His image, so do we, yet God knows all things and His sovereign desires will come about. Not deterministic, but sovereign.

 

[Luke2427]

"Like the incarnation, the creation of the world (universe) is an act of condescension on God's part for the sake of His creatures. Alone in the self-sufficiency of His own being, enjoying the timeless fullness of the intra-Trinitarian love relationships, God had no need for the creation of finite persons. His timeless, free decision to create a temporal world with a beginning is a decision on God's part to abandon timelessness and to take on a temporal mode of existence. He did this, not out of any deficit in Himself or His mode of existence, but in order that finite temporal creatures might come to share the joy and blessedness of the inner life of God. He stooped to take on a mode of existence inessential to His being or happiness in order we might have being and find supreme happiness in Him. His taking a human nature into intimate union with Himself in the incarnation of the Logos, the second person of the Trinity, was thus not what Kierkegaard regarded as the "the Absurd", the union of eternity with time, for God was already temporal at the time of the of the incarnation and had been since the inception of creation. But the incarnation of God stooped even lower to take on, not just our mode of existence, our temporality, but our very nature.

As a result of God's creation of and entry into time, He is now with us literally moment by moment as we live and breathe, sharing our every second. He is and will always be with us. He remembers all that has transpired, knows all that is happening, and foreknows all that is to come, not only in our individual lives but throughout the entire universe. Unfettered by the finite velocity light and clock synchronization procedures, He is, as Newton said, the Lord God of dominion throughout His universe.

St. Jude exclaimed, "To the only God our savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time, and now and forever! Amen!

(Closing remarks from "Time and Eternity: Exploring God's relationship to Time")

Any thoughts or commentary on this issue of God and time would be appreciated.

This is good and I love william lane craig, but it misses something. God made everything primarily for his own glory and only secondarily for our great happiness. This explanation alone accounts for the immense suffering we see in the world around us and, indeed, in eternal hell.