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God can only save those who believe

Outsider

New Member
John 6:39-40 And this is the Father's will which hath sent Me, that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

His will is simply perfect. It does not fail!!!
 

Amy.G

New Member
Outsider said:
Huge difference!!!

He would have done it if they were willing.

This is the Fathers will. Those that believe will be saved. It doesn't fail. God gets what He wants.
There is no difference between saying "I would not do it" and "I am not willing to do it".

But I agree that that those who believe will be saved.
 

Outsider

New Member
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

I'm sorry, I simply disagree. No way these two lines are saying the same thing.
 

Allan

Active Member
Outsider said:
Huge difference!!!

He would have done it if they were willing.

This is the Fathers will. Those that believe will be saved. It doesn't fail. God gets what He wants.
Actually Outsider, no there isn't :)

If God 'would' that means it is His desire for something. He is willing for it to be, yet that does not negate the fact He knows what will transpire.

When God states there are two options, do you believe that there is actaully two options God is giving or do you hold that God is making up the other.
If there is truly two options then one is His decreetive will and the other His permissive will. However the permissive will does not supercede His decreetive will for it is by the decreetive will all things continue to a final point. G

God didn't determine to create man with the sole intent to send more than half into Hell. If He did He would take pleasure, no make that GREAT pleasure in the death of the unrighteous. But scripture tells us that He takes NO pleasure in the death of the unrighteous. Why not? Because God 'would' that ALL MEN repent and come to the knowledge of the Truth.

BTW it is that passage that was being debated (1 Tim) and not the passage in Peter: Here is the KJV version:
1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
ESV:
who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
NASB:
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

The word here for 'will' in the KJV is:
Thelo -
1) to will, have in mind, intend
.........a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose
.........b) to desire, to wish
.........c) to love

1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
.........d) to take delight in, have pleasure

This word is translated in these differing forms:
AV — will/would 159, - will/would have 16, - desire 13, - desirous 3, - list 3, - to will 2, - misc 4
 

dragonfly

New Member
1 Tim 2:3-6
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
(NKJ)
 

TCGreek

New Member
Is it possible that 1 Tim 2:4 reference to "all people" has the Gentiles in mind as well as the Jews?

Here's why:

Paul goes on to say, "For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle, a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (v.7).
 

Outsider

New Member
Allan,

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

This is saying "All men" as in people of all nations. It is not limited to a nation, race, sex or birth right. This is for all people of all nations.
If God 'would' that means it is His desire for something. He is willing for it to be, yet that does not negate the fact He knows what will transpire.
No it doesn't. His will is stated clearly in John 6:39-40. If a lost sinner would believe, God will save them by His grace.

I do see what you are saying, as well as Amy G. My argument is simply God's will. I say it does not and cannot fail. And it doesn't!
Christ died for the sins of the world. It was God's desire for that to happen and it happened.

It is also God's will for us to have everlasting life. The doors are open for all those who believe. That is His will. Is it going to fail? If one can fail then what does that mean? I refuse to accept the notion that His will or anything else can fail.
 

Isaiah40:28

New Member
webdog said:
I believe God permits sin...allows it. He does not decree each sin, since that goes against His charater.
What goes against His character? Decreeing that a sinful man commit that which his sinful heart desires? What has God done wrong? The sinner desires to sin, God says that sin will work for me.
Read Gen. 45 and 50.
Who did Joseph say sent him to Egypt?
His hateful sinful brothers?
Check again.
Read Acts. 2, 3, and 4. God used wicked men to crucify His Son.
Who did Job say was the cause of all the problems?
Satan?
No, he worshipped God and saw His hand at work.
Clearly there are people who in the face of terrible atrocities can see the way to God that most Christians cannot and will not.
If God has no purpose in sin, then it is of no comfort to any of his children when they are sinned against.

webdog said:
If their actions are decreed, they are only doing the Lords work! You really believe that?!?
Yes.
They do unwittingly do His work. They do not intend to further God's kingdom when they kill Christians but God does.
God takes their wickedness and says, "your sin will do what I purpose".
I would rather have God strike me and know that He has a reason and a purpose for doing so then believe that He only permitted something that He has no purpose for. And if He permitted it then He could have prevented it.
There is no comfort in that. Sin is pointless then. And my sin as grievous as it is happens does not happen apart from the will of my Father. My sin disgusts me and frustrates me, yet I know that He is working in me to do what His will desires. When I sin, I confess it and grieve over it, yet it accomplishes His purposes in my life. I hate my sin, not as much as I should, but if God uses my sin to accomplish His will with me then I want to be part of His plan for my life, sin and all.

Good night.
 

Allan

Active Member
TCGreek said:
Is it possible that 1 Tim 2:4 reference to "all people" has the Gentiles in mind as well as the Jews?

Here's why:

Paul goes on to say, "For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle, a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (v.7).
I would agree and therefore it would still be the same, except the scope has broadened beyond the Jews. The reference of all in the context is refering to all mankind which is inclusive of the Gentile people along with the Jewish people, but not exclusively the Gentiles.

We know that God chose the Jewish people to be His people but not all the Jews were saved. Yet He reached out to them all and many rejected, He called them all and many refused.
Pro 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
Pro 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
Pro 1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
.....
Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
Pro 1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
This paralleled in the passages of Mat :
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
and Rom 10:21
Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


So to broaden the scope beyond the Jews, means that the same desire He had for the Jews is now fixated toward the Gentiles as a whole (just as it was for the Jews as whole) we can both conclude and see scripturally that though He reaches out to all not all will receive Him, and though He calls to the Gentiles not all will come.
 

Allan

Active Member
Outsider said:
Allan,

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

This is saying "All men" as in people of all nations. It is not limited to a nation, race, sex or birth right. This is for all people of all nations.
Exactly!! It is inclusive of 'all people' and not exclusive. Thus God desires for 'all men' to repent and come to the knowledge of truth.

I love what Spurgeon says (and he is a staunch 5 point Cal who holds to the Cal view of Election) but listen to what He says about this passage:
Salvation by Knowing the Truth
Here is a quote from it:
It is quite certain that when we read that God will have all men to be saved it does not mean that he wills it with the force of a decree or a divine purpose, for, if he did, then all men would be saved. He willed to make the world, and the world was made: he does not so will the salvation of all men, for we know that all men will not be saved. Terrible as the truth is, yet is it certain from holy writ that there are men who, in consequence of their sin and their rejection of the Savior, will go away into everlasting punishment, where shall be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. There will at the last be goats upon the left hand as well as sheep on the right, tares to be burned as well as wheat to be garnered, chaff to be blown away as well as corn to be preserved. There will be a dreadful hell as well as a glorious heaven, and there is no decree to the contrary.
What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. "All men," say they,—"that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if he had meant some men. "All men," say they; "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said "all sorts of men" if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the "alls" according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. I thought when I read his exposition that it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, "Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth." Had such been the inspired language every remark of the learned doctor would have been exactly in keeping, but as it happens to say, "Who will have all men to be saved," his observations are more than a little out of place. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself; for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, "God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
Does not the text mean that it is the wish of God that men should be saved? The word "wish" gives as much force to the original as it really requires, and the passage should run thus—"whose wish it is that all men should be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth." As it is my wish that it should be so, as it is your wish that it might be so, so it is God's wish that all men should be saved; for, assuredly, he is not less benevolent than we are. Then comes the question, "But if he wishes it to be so, why does he not make it so? " Beloved friend, have you never heard that a fool may ask a question which a wise man cannot answer, and, if that be so, I am sure a wise person, like yourself, can ask me a great many questions which, fool as I am, I am yet not foolish enough to try to answer. Your question is only one form of the great debate of all the ages,—"


No it doesn't. His will is stated clearly in John 6:39-40. If a lost sinner would believe, God will save them by His grace.
No question. However, do you believe that God does not desire to save all His creation (relating to man)? I ask this because if He does not then does the scripture state He will that all men repent? Or that the Gospel be preached to all? Or that Christ is not only the propitiation for our sins but for the sins of the whole world?

Why does God NOT take pleasure in the death of the wicked, if it is His will that they depart from Him into everlasting damnation? Because He does not desire or more accurately 'wish' them to be there, Yet He has decreed that all who will not believe, will be damned for rejecting the truth (2 Thes 2:10-12) or another way to say it - to trade the truth for a lie (Rom 1: 18- ). God has given man to man the 'Resposiblity of will'.

I do see what you are saying, as well as Amy G. My argument is simply God's will. I say it does not and cannot fail. And it doesn't!
Oh, I do understand, and don't get me wrong. However there is more than one will of God at work relating to God and His creation.

It is also God's will for us to have everlasting life. The doors are open for all those who believe. That is His will. Is it going to fail? If one can fail then what does that mean? I refuse to accept the notion that His will or anything else can fail.
No one has said His will has failed. If it was not for His will no one would be saved. It was His permissive will that allows for choice regarding salvation, but it is His decreetive will that establishes what is and is to be. But with regard to the passage in 1 Tim 2 the better understanding of the word 'will' would be 'wish' or 'desires'
 
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TCGreek

New Member
Allan said:
I would agree and therefore it would still be the same, except the scope has broadened beyond the Jews. The reference of all in the context is refering to all mankind which is inclusive of the Gentile people along with the Jewish people, but not exclusively the Gentiles.

We know that God chose the Jewish people to be His people but not all the Jews were saved. Yet He reached out to them all and many rejected, He called them all and many refused.

This paralleled in the passages of Mat :

and Rom 10:21



So to broaden the scope beyond the Jews, means that the same desire He had for the Jews is now fixated toward the Gentiles as a whole (just as it was for the Jews as whole) we can both conclude and see scripturally that though He reaches out to all not all will receive Him, and though He calls to the Gentiles not all will come.

Allan,

I'm interested in meaning of "all people" in 1 Tim 2:4, and it seems like you're in agreement with me.

Jews and Gentiles.

Everyone within the Jewish and Gentile community is a different debate.
 

Allan

Active Member
TCGreek said:
Allan,

I'm interested in meaning of "all people" in 1 Tim 2:4, and it seems like you're in agreement with me.

Jews and Gentiles.

Everyone within the Jewish and Gentile community is a different debate.
On that I am. :)

And on the other.. we both know I'm not :laugh:
 

TCGreek

New Member
Allan said:
On that I am. :)

And on the other.. we both know I'm not :laugh:

Well, you know, that's a tough one.

We both know the issues involve here.

For example, the context of John 12:32 is the same as this one.
 

Allan

Active Member
TCGreek said:
Well, you know, that's a tough one.

We both know the issues involve here.

For example, the context of John 12:32 is the same as this one.
Agreed on both counts.

There is just a difference in our views of the inclusiveness or exclusiveness in relation to the phrase 'all men'.
 

TCGreek

New Member
Allan said:
Agreed on both counts.

There is just a difference in our view of inclusive and exclusive regarding 'all men'.

Well, if the context of John 12:32 includes v. 22, where we have the Greeks seeking Jesus, then "all" must reference all types of people.

For example, when we come to the Letters, there's always an interplay between Jews and Gentiles (Rom 1:16; 1 Cor 1:22-24).

Then when we come to Rev we read:

“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,

Notice that "people for God" refers to different ethnic nationalities--types of people.
 
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