God can only save those who believe

[Allan]

What goes against His character? Decreeing that a sinful man commit that which his sinful heart desires? What has God done wrong? The sinner desires to sin, God says that sin will work for me.
Read Gen. 45 and 50.
Who did Joseph say sent him to Egypt?
His hateful sinful brothers?
Check again.
Read Acts. 2, 3, and 4. God used wicked men to crucify His Son.
Who did Job say was the cause of all the problems?
Satan?
No, he worshipped God and saw His hand at work.
Clearly there are people who in the face of terrible atrocities can see the way to God that most Christians cannot and will not.
If God has no purpose in sin, then it is of no comfort to any of his children when they are sinned against.

I think you misunderstood what he was meaning.
God does not foredetermine what sins a man will do and then that man has no choice but to do them. IOW - Man does not choose to do or act in sinfully but God has chosen for him those sins he will do. Thus you have God being the author and originator of sin the man does.
This is what I think Web is speaking of or meaning.

 

[Linda64]

God can save anyone, but He will not save just anyone. Scripture says He will save whosoever shall call upon His Name (Rom. 10:13).

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[Allan]

Well, if the context of John 12:32 includes v. 22, where we have the Greeks seeking Jesus, then "all" must reference all types of people.

No question. It is inclusive of all people and not just Jews. But verse 22 is not the definer of what Christ meant though it shows or illistrates what He is speaking of.

For example, when we come to the Letters, there's always an interplay between Jews and Gentiles (Rom 1:16; 1 Cor 1:22-24).

Then when we come to Rev we read:

“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,

Notice that "people for God" refers to different ethnic nationalities--types of people.

I would not say 'types' personally but groups (it symantics I know). It is refering to all the people from out of the whole world.

But I'm not sure where your going with this?? raying:

 

[TCGreek]

God can save anyone, but He will not save just anyone. Scripture says He will save whosoever shall call upon His Name (Rom. 10:13).

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Welcome back Linda.

Now back to our theological differences. :laugh:

But even Rom 10:13 "whosoever" must take v.12 into consideration, which refers to Jews and Greeks.

So the "whosoever," I think, refers to Jews and Greeks.

 

[TCGreek]

No question. It is inclusive of all people and not just Jews. But verse 22 is not the definer of what Christ meant though it shows or illistrates what He is speaking of.

Well, if we're not sure, I think we should let context inform us. For me "all" refers to both Jews and Greeks.

I would not say 'types' personally but groups (it symantics I know). It is refering to all the people from out of the whole world.

But I'm not sure where your going with this?? raying:

Different ethnic groups.

 

[Allan]

Well, if we're not sure, I think we should let context inform us. For me "all" refers to both Jews and Greeks.

No question, but was Christ only speaking of Jews and Greeks and no one else?

Or

Does All refer not only to the Jews but all others as well?

I say this because the text does not specifically tell us - Jews and Greeks alone, and we know there are other (ethnic) groups to which the gospel of God has been sent.

Actaully, I think we are saying the same thing.

Different ethnic groups

And thus IMHO 'all men', regarding all these groups, corrispond to the inclusiveness of all those people which make up those groups. Thus Christ calling 'all men' unto Himself, add to that the work of the Holy Spirit to the world by convicting them of sin, His (Jesus) righteousness, and the Judgment to come. The inclusiveness seems apparent (to me at least)

 

[standingfirminChrist]

If Paul was referring to only people of Jewish ethnicity and Grecian ethnicity, then the rest of the world has no hope whatsoever if they are not of the Jewish and Grecian ethnic groups of people.

I am so glad my God's love is boundless and reaches far beyond just two races of people, reaching as far as whosoever will. God so loved the world, not just two ethnic groups, but the entire creation.

 

[Linda64]

Welcome back Linda.

Now back to our theological differences. :laugh:

But even Rom 10:13 "whosoever" must take v.12 into consideration, which refers to Jews and Greeks.

So the "whosoever," I think, refers to Jews and Greeks.

Greeks are Gentiles....the gospel is the power of salvation to everyone that believeth, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1672. Hellen
Search for G1672 in KJVSL
Hellen hel'-lane
from 1671; a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas; by extension a Greek-speaking person, especially a non-Jew:-- Gentile, Greek.

See Greek 1671

There are three types of people..Jews, Gentiles (or Greeks) and the Church (composed of saved Jews and Greeks/Gentiles).

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

The word for Gentiles in 1 Cor. 10:32 is the same word for Greek in Romans 1:16 and Romans 10:12.

 

[TCGreek]

No question, but was Christ only speaking of Jews and Greeks and no one else?

Or

Does All refer not only to the Jews but all others as well?

I say this because the text does not specifically tell us - Jews and Greeks alone, and we know there are other (ethnic) groups to which the gospel of God has been sent.

Actaully, I think we are saying the same thing.


And thus IMHO 'all men', regarding all these groups, corrispond to the inclusiveness of all those people which make up those groups. Thus Christ calling 'all men' unto Himself, add to that the work of the Holy Spirit to the world by convicting them of sin, His (Jesus) righteousness, and the Judgment to come. The inclusiveness seems apparent (to me at least)

Allan, in the NT a person is either a Jew or a Gentile (Rom 1:16).

Only when a NT writer wants to make reference to other ethnicities is there a departure from this rule (Acts 2).

 

[TCGreek]

Greeks are Gentiles....the gospel is the power of salvation to everyone that believeth, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1672. Hellen
Search for G1672 in KJVSL
Hellen hel'-lane
from 1671; a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas; by extension a Greek-speaking person, especially a non-Jew:-- Gentile, Greek.

See Greek 1671

There are three types of people..Jews, Gentiles (or Greeks) and the Church (composed of saved Jews and Greeks/Gentiles).

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

The word for Gentiles in 1 Cor. 10:32 is the same word for Greek in Romans 1:16 and Romans 10:12.

Thanks for the info, Linda. :thumbs:

 

[TCGreek]

If Paul was referring to only people of Jewish ethnicity and Grecian ethnicity, then the rest of the world has no hope whatsoever if they are not of the Jewish and Grecian ethnic groups of people.

I am so glad my God's love is boundless and reaches far beyond just two races of people, reaching as far as whosoever will. God so loved the world, not just two ethnic groups, but the entire creation.

I think you should read Linda's post.

 

[TCGreek]

Let me try to explain myself some more:

There are the Jews and then all other peoples are Gentiles.

 

[Allan]

Allan, in the NT a person is either a Jew or a Gentile (Rom 1:16).

Only when a NT writer wants to make reference to other ethnicities is there a departure from this rule (Acts 2).

That is why I stated "I think we are saying the same thing".

 

[David Lamb]

Amy,
God can't sin.
Do you "like" that phrase?

That does not mean He lacks the power to sin. It is surely more linked to what sin is - rebellion against God and His will. How is it possible for God to rebel against His own will? If He wants to do something, it is His will, and therefore cannot be sin.

 

[Allan]

Let me try to explain myself some more:

There are the Jews and then all other peoples are Gentiles.

We are in agreement.

 

[dragonfly]

Let me repeat:

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
1 Tim 2:3-6 (NKJ)

Maybe the Calvinists didn't see these verses.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

I think you misunderstood what he was meaning.
God does not foredetermine what sins a man will do and then that man has no choice but to do them.

God foreknows what sins a man will do and then that man has no choice but to do them.
Is that what you would say?

IOW - Man does not choose to do or act in sinfully but God has chosen for him those sins he will do.

Genesis 45:

5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
7 And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.
8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God:and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.

Thus you have God being the author and originator of sin the man does.

The Joseph really meant that God was the author and originator of his brothers sin? He told them that it was not "you who sent me here" but God.
God was the originator of the plan, the people involved and the deeds necessary to get Joseph to Egypt.

 

[Allan]

God foreknows what sins a man will do and then that man has no choice but to do them.
Is that what you would say?

No that is not what I would say.
God knowing mans sinfulness 'still gives man the choice' to obey/repent or sin. God knowing the choice each 'man' will make and 'allowing' them to make that choice does not equate to not having a choice.

Not having a choice would equate to God determining what sin you will do, and then have you do it.

The Joseph really meant that God was the author and originator of his brothers sin? He told them that it was not "you who sent me here" but God.

Are you saying that God was actively working in their hearts to commit the sin??

If so, please know that this IS NOT what the passage is infering at all.

God was the originator of the plan, the people involved and the deeds necessary to get Joseph to Egypt.

Again, it sounds like you are saying that God is actively working in their hearts to commit these sins to maintain His plan so Joseph can go to Egypt. Is this what you are saying?

 

[Trotter]

[quote="Isaiah40:28]God wants to save people, yet He cannot.
Why?
Because man won't let Him.
Man has the power.
God does not.
He is powerless to save the very ones He wants to save. So God in vain desires that which He can never have, the salvation of all mankind.
So God loses. He wants that which He cannot have and the non-Cal says,
"What is so hard about that?"
Apparently nothing if you can't see the problems with God knowing those who will not be saved, yet He "draws" them all anyway[/quote]
Man has the power, but not God? What have you been smoking? Man has no power.

God has all power, but He loves us and does not force Himself upon us. He can save everyone without an effort, but that is not the way He operates. Man is given the choice and God respects that choice, pure and simple.

The "draw" is the Spirit's wooing of all men, even those who reject it. God wills/wants all to accept His calling, but most turn it away. jesus told of this several times.

Man doesn't stop God. God allows man to live with the decision man makes. Just like any good Father would.

 

[mactx]

I haven't read all the responses. I too dislike the can't part.
God CAN save everyone. It is His desire to do so. However, He only saves those who are willing to accept the gift.
It is like when I fix dinner, i call my family and I want them all to come share the meal, but if they do not choose to do so, I will not drag them from their activities to force feed them. (at this point my home is full of adults, no children)
If we do not want God, He will not force our acceptance. It will sadden Him to lose us, but He will not force us to do His will.