God can only save those who believe

[Isaiah40:28]

No that is not what I would say.
God knowing mans sinfulness 'still gives man the choice' to obey/repent or sin. God knowing the choice each 'man' will make and 'allowing' them to make that choice does not equate to not having a choice.

Allan,
Then you affirm what I just said.

God foreknows what sins a man will do and then that man has no choice but to do them.

God's knowledge of the sin makes the sin a sure thing.
That's what I'm asking if you affirm.
From God's persepctive, if God foreknows what sins a man will do then it is sure that man must do them.
In that sense, man has no choice but to do them. He cannot not commit the sin that God foreknows. He commits the sin willingly and without force, but he must commit the sin that God foreknew.

The reason I'm asking you is because you do not affirm foreseen faith. And I still have not figured out how you affirm both God's knowledge of all things, His decrees and man's free will.
We have gone round and round and I don't think I can yet articulate your argument for you. I'm trying to.

Not having a choice would equate to God determining what sin you will do, and then have you do it.

God must determine that sinful acts will occur. Otherwise the Bible is untrue in it's accounts
He determined that His Son would be crucified by angry Jewish leaders and a weak Roman government. How can He accomplish such an event without also determining what sins have to be committed in order for Jesus to be put on the cross?

Are you saying that God was actively working in their hearts to commit the sin??

If so, please know that this IS NOT what the passage is infering at all.

No. And I think you know that.
I am saying that God took the sinful deeds of Joseph's brothers and caused them to work for His purposes.
Don't you remember Russell55 talking about soft and hard determinism with you guys? Do you remember what she explained is the difference between how God works good and evil?
I found part of her post:

Compatibalists, on the other hand, say that all evil acts come about by way of God's permission. The Holy Spirit doesn't move people to do evil. However, God's plan for creation includes evil acts and he brings about the evil acts in his plan by permitting them, and his permission ensures that those evil acts will occur.

That thread ended with neither disagreement from you or Swaimj about where your disagreement lies with this doctrine. You only seemed to disagree about what labels people use or should use for what they believe.

Again, it sounds like you are saying that God is actively working in their hearts to commit these sins to maintain His plan so Joseph can go to Egypt. Is this what you are saying?

See above.
What Russell55 articulated is what I believe.

How do you differ is what I'm trying to figure out.
What is your positive exegesis from this Gen. passage or even from Acts 2,3 or 4?

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Man has the power, but not God? What have you been smoking? Man has no power.

Oh yes, he does. He has the power to accept or reject Christ, right?
God cannot save someone unless they accept Christ.
So who has the power?
Man does.
He is the one who decides what his destiny will be, God, after "drawing all men" can only hope and will and want that man chooses Him.

God has all power, but He loves us and does not force Himself upon us. He can save everyone without an effort, but that is not the way He operates. Man is given the choice and God respects that choice, pure and simple.

I love my son and if he needs rescuing at any point in his life from danger, I will forcibly remove him from that danger if need be. I will not respect my son's choice to kill himself. That is love.
What you purport is not love.

The "draw" is the Spirit's wooing of all men, even those who reject it.

For what purpose does the Spirit woo those who will certainty reject it?
To bring further condemnation on the unbeliever?

Man doesn't stop God. God allows man to live with the decision man makes. Just like any good Father would.

I already addressed that faulty thinking.
I do not want a Father who lets me wallow in my sin.
I want a Father who says He loves me to save me when I need it the most.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

An admission:
I cannot afford the time needed to post here.
I feel quite convicted about it every time I sit down to read and post.

Many things slide, including my much needed patience and time with my kids and husband.

I'll never convince anyone differently.
That's God's job.
I think I'll let Him do it without me and do what He does require of me.

Love to you all.

 

[TCGreek]

Whether I'm a calvinist or non-calvinist, I'm interested in what context says.

But it seems like some are willing to set context aside for a pet position.

 

[DHK]

I already addressed that faulty thinking.
I do not want a Father who lets me wallow in my sin.
I want a Father who says He loves me to save me when I need it the most.

The father of the prodigal son allowed his son to wallow in his sin. It was the son's choice to come back to the father. He "came to his senses." In other words, he made a choice to do that which is right. But he didn't have to make that choice. He wasn't forced to do it. He could have "continued to wallow."

 

[donnA]

Apparently, God is powerless against the will of man.

 

[DHK]

Apparently, God is powerless against the will of man.

God doesn't force man to do anything.
He made man in his own image and likeness.
That means that he gave man a mind to reason and a mind to choose; to discern between good and evil. This is something that the animals cannot do.
If man desires to choose evil over good, then that is his decison. God gives man the choice. Calvinism wallows in its decision to decide for God that God cannot give man a choice. Calvinism has commanded God to not give man a choice. That is quite arrogant of Calvinism, don't you think?

 

[Trotter]

[quote="Isaiah40:28]An admission:
I cannot afford the time needed to post here.
I feel quite convicted about it every time I sit down to read and post.

Many things slide, including my much needed patience and time with my kids and husband.

I'll never convince anyone differently.
That's God's job.
I think I'll let Him do it without me and do what He does require of me.

Love to you all.[/quote]
thanks for letting us know why you are bowing out.

God cannot save someone unless they accept Christ.
So who has the power?
Man does.
He is the one who decides what his destiny will be, God, after "drawing all men" can only hope and will and want that man chooses Him.

Man has no power other than to choose. God can forcibly save each and every person who has ever, or will ever exist, but then He would be going against His very nature. Adam and Eve's eyes were opened in the garden, and they knew good and evil just as God. In that moment man made a choice, and we all have to make that same choice at some point in our lives... to accept or reject.

I cannot see where you, or anyone else, comes up with man having the power over salvation. A bullet can kill, but it is the person behind the gun who makes the choice to pull the trigger. the person holding the gun does not have that power himself, but the bullet in the gun does. So how can the person claim to have to power if all he did was to decide to pull the trigger?

Man is nothing compared to God, but God holds us inhigh esteem, high enough to bleed and die for us. If man has the power you say, Christ was not needed and His suffereing and death were a sideshow. It is through the finished work of Christ on the cross that we are able to even chose at all, but the power is not in man.

For what purpose does the Spirit woo those who will certainty reject it?
To bring further condemnation on the unbeliever?

God would have all men to be saved, but He leaves that decision with us. No, that would not be the way I would have done it, but I am not God and I do not suppose to know His will and ways.

We do not know who will or will not accept God's offer of salvation. I would have never guessed that I would accept salvation, especially with the mindset I had. I have seen people who I never would have thought would accept Christ do so weeping in happiness. And I have seen fine, honorable people turn and walk away. God calls, and we share the gospel, but do not know who or when.

I do not want a Father who lets me wallow in my sin.
I want a Father who says He loves me to save me when I need it the most.

God lets us make our own decisions, be they good or bad. He also lets us live with the consequences of those choices, good or bad. Sin brings chastisement, and that is part of it. Until we have hit rock bottom, we seldom bother to look up.

No parent who insulates their child is being a good parent. Children have to learn, and dealing with the consequences of their choices is a part of learning. When we are saved, God doesn't immediately snatch us out of this world and into heaven... we stay here to further His kingdom and spread His grace. So why, then, we you suppose that He would shield us from our own folly?

 

[donnA]

God doesn't force man to do anything.
He made man in his own image and likeness.
That means that he gave man a mind to reason and a mind to choose; to discern between good and evil. This is something that the animals cannot do.
If man desires to choose evil over good, then that is his decison. God gives man the choice. Calvinism wallows in its decision to decide for God that God cannot give man a choice. Calvinism has commanded God to not give man a choice. That is quite arrogant of Calvinism, don't you think?

Again, apparently God is powerless, you have described a god who is not a god.

 

[DHK]

Again, apparently God is powerless, you have described a god who is not a god.

No, I have exposed the weakness of Calvinism; I didn't describe God, I described Calvinism.

 

[DHK]

doube post

 

[reformedbeliever]

The father of the prodigal son allowed his son to wallow in his sin. It was the son's choice to come back to the father. He "came to his senses." In other words, he made a choice to do that which is right. But he didn't have to make that choice. He wasn't forced to do it. He could have "continued to wallow."

The prodigal son was already a "son".

I think God will allow one of His people to wallow in their sin also.... knowing it will have its effect, and that the son will return with a lesson learned.

 

[reformedbeliever]

God doesn't force man to do anything.
He made man in his own image and likeness.
That means that he gave man a mind to reason and a mind to choose; to discern between good and evil. This is something that the animals cannot do.
If man desires to choose evil over good, then that is his decison. God gives man the choice. Calvinism wallows in its decision to decide for God that God cannot give man a choice. Calvinism has commanded God to not give man a choice. That is quite arrogant of Calvinism, don't you think?

You prove your ignorance of Calvinism over and over and.............................

 

[DHK]

You prove your ignorance of Calvinism over and over and.............................

I admit that that is an extreme statement. I said it to make a point. There are Calvinists here that deny that man has no free will, and cannot make any choice. True?
And yet the Bible says: Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. That demands that one make a decision. Man is not forced by God into making a decision. He is not a robot forced by the Holy Spirit into making a decision. He does have that free will.

The Calvinist believes that grace cannot be resisted, i.e., Irresistable Grace.
And yet, Stephen said about the Israelites "Why do ye always resist the Holy Spirit as your fathers did..."
Obviously it can be resisted, and has been many times. It is resisted because man has a free will to resist the drawing of the Holy Spirit, the conviction of the Holy Spirit. But Calvinisim says, No, this is impossible.

 

[superwoman8977]

The prodigal son was already a "son".

I think God will allow one of His people to wallow in their sin also.... knowing it will have its effect, and that the son will return with a lesson learned.

I totally agree with you. My husband accepted Christ back in 2004 and left for Iraq in 2005 while in Iraq he cheated and then when he came home in Oct 2006 he left me and the kids. He even moved in with another woman. He was like totally running from God, but I didnt give up on him or our marriage. I kept on keeping on in prayer standing in the gap for my husband. The biggest wall came down when I forgave my husband it was like the floodgates were opened and the bitterness and anger and resentment were gone. We have since begun working on reconciliation. My husband isnt back with the Lord yet but God is still working on Him I see changes everyday of his life. God is like mapping out the steps for him. I have faith some day he will come marching home to the Lord just like the prodigal son, he has already come marching hom to me ready to be a husband and a father again. Cant give up faith Gotta keep on praying..

 

[reformedbeliever]

I admit that that is an extreme statement. I said it to make a point. There are Calvinists here that deny that man has no free will, and cannot make any choice. True?
And yet the Bible says: Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. That demands that one make a decision. Man is not forced by God into making a decision. He is not a robot forced by the Holy Spirit into making a decision. He does have that free will.

The Calvinist believes that grace cannot be resisted, i.e., Irresistable Grace.
And yet, Stephen said about the Israelites "Why do ye always resist the Holy Spirit as your fathers did..."
Obviously it can be resisted, and has been many times. It is resisted because man has a free will to resist the drawing of the Holy Spirit, the conviction of the Holy Spirit. But Calvinisim says, No, this is impossible.

When you say something that you know is not true....... what is that?

 

[pinoybaptist]

When you say something that you know is not true....... what is that?

Let me see.......uhhhmmm....how about "extreme statement" ?:laugh:

 

[DHK]

When you say something that you know is not true....... what is that?

Is there something in my above quote that is not true.

 

[webdog]

When you say something that you know is not true....... what is that?

Why don't you ask Isaiah40?

 

[donnA]

There are Calvinists here that deny that man has no free will, and cannot make any choice.

you misunderstand.