God chooses randomly?

Jarlaxle, If you are asking what is in the elect for God to choose them and not others, that is the same as, why did you merit His mercy and someone else didn't? That is why I posted what I did. If this is not what you were asking, then what were you asking. I believe that this started out by you asking me the question "what when where and how is somone elect?" That is my answer, if that is not you question, what is?

I don't take it as an attack as long as you are truly wanting to know, and not trying to set me up for some slam session as to what I believe. I have good trust that you are not.

 

What scripture tells us is that God's chosing us is not based upon anything we do or what we will, but upon God's own purpose according to His choice.

In other words, it is not random, for it is according to God's purpose--when He choses someone, He has reasons for His choice, but that choice is not based upon any conditions (or criteria) that we meet, either by doing something, or by choosing something.

...in order that God's purpose according to His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls....

...it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy...

 

Exactly, there is no merit in which we recieve salvation, and even if there was, God is obliged to do nothing. Salvation is not an obligation it is an object of benevolence.

 

Regeneration is a Divine act only as a person receives Christ into thier lives. The working of the Holy Spirit is alway working on the minds and lives of those who understand His plan of salvation. The new birth of 'regeneration' is unlike that of physical birth. Nicodemus made this mistake. The sinner cannot help regenerate himself; only God does this mighty act in human beings.

No one wakes up in the middle of the night and is impressed that God has regenerated him. If this were true God could regenerate a sinner and directly after that he could crash in a horrific car accident and would be able to enter Heaven without even having to believe in Jesus.

God does the work but only when a person invites Him into his or her heart. The power to become the sons and daughters of the living God comes as a result of receiving the Christ of the Cross who reigns in majestic splendor in Heaven. [John 1:12] Believing and receiving are integral in this Divine movement into the life of a sinner. And let me say that believing and receiving are not a human work by way of contributing to human salvation and everlasting life.

[Hebrews 4:2] indicates that some who heard the Word of savation did not comingle faith with the hearing of the Word, and so nothing by way of regeneration took place. But those who did have faith in Christ's Word of truth found rest [Hebrews 4:3] because they believed.

 

Excellent post, Ray

 

The author of Hebrews, God speaking through him, says that Christians should go on to perfection and that their ' . . . faith is toward God.' [Hebrews 6:1] Dr. James Strong says that the word, 'toward' is {epi} which is a word suggesting 'a relation of distribution.' I believe it to be a connecting word between the human soul and the Objective and in the trustworthiness of Almighty God. The distribution aspect is from our rebellion as sinners to that of disposing of our confidence in Jesus Christ.

This is a far cry from Calvinism's Divinely, superimposed concept of regeneration and then the sinner believing in Him and finally the personal reception of the faith of Christ.

 

And Ray has given the arminian post of what regeneration is.

Biblically now, regeneration is when God causes something that was formally dead and makes it alive. To regenerate. Dead men cannot do this, nor can they even decide to do this. Dead men (and I know this is spiritually, but hang on) are exactly that, DEAD (spiritually) Deciding to follow a holy God is something that only an alive person can do. So God regenerates us from death to life which causes us to respond to him in belief. To confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and to believe in our hearts that God has raised him from the dead. Regenerate people will do this. How could we not respond like that to such a loving savior.

 

The 'new birth' [John 3:3] is God's work of everlasting life in sinners. Believing in Jesus Christ [John 3:16] does not create this event it is only fulfilling His requirement or condition in giving His gift [Ephesians 2:8 & 9] to the lost. In other words, believing, having faith in Jesus, or trusting in Christ's saving plan for human beings does not trigger regeneration; this is why faith in Christ is not a 'human work.' [Ephesians 2:9] But, once sinners believe God, because of His calling, He can continue His desired work in granting justification, sanctification and finally glorification for His saints. [Romans 8:30]

Human beings as sinners or saints cannot even lift their right foot up in bringing about their present or final salvation. Only one thing keeps sinners away from Him and that is not acknowledging His Being and work accomplished at the Cross. When we have faith toward Him and/or believe in Him, He then does the Divine work in our hearts which we call regeneration. Only one condition! 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.' [Acts 16:31]

 

I believe that regeneration takes place at the moment faith is awakened by the Spirit through the Word of God.

Justification, being a legal transaction, was won for us positionally on the cross but does not become our practical possession until the new birth.

God has never, does never, and will never do anything randomly. IMHO. He is the God of ORDER!

Rufus

 

Hi russel 55;

A quote from you;

-----------------------------------------------------------

In other words, it is not random, for it is according to God's purpose--when He choses someone, He has reasons for His choice, but that choice is not based upon any conditions (or criteria) that we meet, either by doing something, or by choosing something.

------------------------------------------------------------

May I suggest a reason for his choosing which you have not shown.Jn 3 :16 Acts 16:31 Rev 3:20 He chooses us because we choose to open up to Him.

Where does the Bible say this isn't so?

Romanbear

 

(for context: "this" refers to "I specifically said there must be something about the person that pleases God to select them.") Here is your scriptural support:

No, I do not agree. I am not saying I know it to be false, but I cannot know it to be true from this scripture. I say this especially because I interpret your statement to mean God saw something in us which pleased Him, which is WHY He chose us instead of others. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

If that is what you are saying, it seems to me to be a logical contradiction. If God predestined us to be who we are, then He didn't choose us because of something in us, since whatever is in us is something He put there. In that case, God created us to be chosen, He didn't just wind up creation, see how it turned out, and then picked those who pleased Him.

My point isn't that what I just said is true or false, but that Ephesians doesn't tell us the answer.

False axioms like these are the bane of the Arminians. "With merit comes obligation." "The word 'if' requirs a choice, which requires free will." I could go on and on. But that's one of the errors in your reasoning. You invent an axiom and by it you think you prove your point to be true.

 

Jarlaxle, just curious, where in that verse does it prove that "the word if demands a choice, and that demands free will?" I don't see it. And I am not even sure that has to be true. Israel was told to follow every letter of the law, and it was known that they could not do it. It was to show them their sin and their need for a propitiation.

Please explain.

sturgman

 

I would like to explore more of what Harald had to say unless you brethren feel you had any hand in your natural birth?... Would not the spiritual birth or what is called by many regeneration be the same thing?... What should Nicodemas have known that Jesus Christ said he should?... Was not Jesus pointing to Nicodemas and telling him that the natural is a type of the spiritual... Especially in relation to being born again or regenerated?... Jesus says he was a master in Israel and should have known these things... Why didn't he?... Why does he use the terminolgy that he being a man how can he enter the second time in his mothers womb?... Did he feel he could rebirth himself if shown the way that a lot of those who believe in the born again movement can?... And if a person is seeking to be reborn is he not already then why is he seeking?... No brethren I agree 100% with Harald as the regeneration or again birth is what the word means is done by Messianic restoration and the sinner is passive and as Harald said a biblical fact!... Brother Glen

 

For Romanbear,

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I am a Calvinist and I believe John 3:16 just like it is written.

Whosoever (pas) in the Greek according to Strong's Concordance can mean any of the following:

all, any, every, the whole:--all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

World (Kosmos) in the Greek can mean any of the following:

kosmos, kos'-mos; prob. from the base of G2865; orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by impl. the world (in a wide or narrow sense, includ. its inhab., lit. or fig. [mor.]):--adorning, world.

So how is John 3:16 a verse that contradicts Calvinism?

 

I can't see anything in any of those verses that even addresses the issue of why God chose anyone. I see the first two saying that faith is necessary to salvation. I don't see the third one as dealing with salvation at all, but even if I assume for the sake of argument that it does, it would only say that Christ comes into those who "invite Christ in".

Where does the Bible say that it isn't true that God chooses people because they choose Him?

When it says that receiving the promise does not depend on our willing (or choosing) it. (Romans 9:16)

When it says that God chose us from the beginning for salvation through faith. (2 Thes. 2:13) Our choice to believe is the result of God's choice of us, rather than God's choice of us being the result of our choice to believe. God's choice is the precursor to our choice.

 

Another quote taken so far out of context only astronauts could reach it. Let's bring some of that context back to earth:

The whole argument is to say that faith is by grace and not by the law. If it were by the law, we'd have something to boast about, because God would be obligated to save us by our works.

It says nothing whatsoever to establish the false axiom "with merit comes obligation."

Indeed, if one takes the whole passage into consideration, it disproves the possibility that we can choose salvation of our own free will. If our salvation hinges upon our decision, then we are responsible for it, and therefore God is obligated to provide it due to our free-will response. That means we are not saved by grace, since to him who works (decides of his own free will to choose Jesus), the wages (salvation) are not counted as grace but as debt.

 

I wonder about the concept that some say that God receives 'greater glory' because He sovereignly chooses some for Heaven, the elect, and the vast, vast majority to Hell. God's attributes are infinite and He does not need saint or sinner to try to add to His sovereignty, glory, love, mercy, justice or anything else, as if that were even possible.

It is when we thank Him as believers in Jesus for His gift of everlasting life, that He recognizes our worship and adoration, but God, and I say it very respectfully, does not need His ego pumped up. All He asks for us is to believe in Him, [John 3:16] and to worship Him. [John 4:23-24]

 

Bro. Ray,
I agree with you that God does not need either saint, nor sinner to give him or add to his glory. Nonetheless we find in scripture:

"And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them." John 17.10

These are the words of Jesus Christ who is God manifested in the flesh. Somehow, beyond our finite minds, all this does work to further glorify God.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas