God created man with a will of his own.

[37818]

Genesis 2:15-17, ". . . And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. . . ."
This can be undersood God made man to have a free will. And God made man to be responcible.

 

[AustinC]

Genesis 2:15-17, ". . . And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. . . ."
This can be undersood God made man to have a free will. And God made man to be responcible.

Apparently you don't see this as a restrictive Covenant. The very Covenant that Adam and Eve rebelled against and thus received the curse this Covenant bestowed to Adam, Eve, and all their offspring.

 

[Silverhair]

Genesis 2:15-17, ". . . And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. . . ."
This can be undersood God made man to have a free will. And God made man to be responcible.

After Adam sinned God told Him the ground was cursed and that he would have to toil to survive & Eve was told she would suffer pain during child birth. Both were told that upon death they would return to the earth. What they were not told is that they would loose their free will. Actually it was just the opposite because they still retained the ability to judge good from evil. Genesis 3:22

God has dealt with man from the position that man can and should make real choices. Those choices were up to and including whether they would trust and follow God. Ezekiel 18:23, Ezekiel 18:32

Man is told to seek God and that He may be found. Israel was told to seek God Jeremiah 29:13 and everyone is told to seek God Acts of the Apostles 17:26-27

Man's free will is clearly seen in the bible and should not be denied.

 

[AustinC]

After Adam sinned God told Him the ground was cursed and that he would have to toil to survive & Eve was told she would suffer pain during child birth. Both were told that upon death they would return to the earth. What they were not told is that they would loose their free will. Actually it was just the opposite because they still retained the ability to judge good from evil. Genesis 3:22

God has dealt with man from the position that man can and should make real choices. Those choices were up to and including whether they would trust and follow God. Ezekiel 18:23, Ezekiel 18:32

Man is told to seek God and that He may be found. Israel was told to seek God Jeremiah 29:13 and everyone is told to seek God Acts of the Apostles 17:26-27

Man's free will is clearly seen in the bible and should not be denied.

We'll have to tell that to Jesus...
*John 6:44*
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
*John 14:6*
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

[37818]

. . . they still retained the ability to judge good from evil. Genesis 3:22

They lost their free will per Romans 6:16, ". . . Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, . . ." But the redemption through Christ was not yet available to them. It is that knowledge of good and evil that caused our sinful nature. And it changed them from Genesis 2:25 to Genesis 3:7. So we need to be clothed.

Man did not cease having his own ability to make choices. Galatians 2:21

 

[37818]

God has dealt with man from the position that man can and should make real choices. Those choices were up to and including whether they would trust and follow God. Ezekiel 18:23, Ezekiel 18:32

That was under the Law. Romans 5:13.
Galatians 2:21.

 

[Silverhair]

They lost their free will per Romans 6:16, ". . . Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, . . ." But the redemption through Christ was not yet available to them. It is that knowledge of good and evil that caused our sinful nature. And it changed them from Genesis 2:25 to Genesis 3:7. So we need to be clothed.

Man did not cease having his own ability to make choices. Galatians 2:21

37 did you miss the words in red
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Those indicate choice/free will. The person has to choose whom they will obey.

 

[Silverhair]

That was under the Law. Romans 5:13.
Galatians 2:21.

I think this was just slightly before the law and from a higher authority.
Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil.

If God says we can know then I will trust what He has said.

 

[37818]

I think this was just slightly before the law and from a higher authority.
Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil.

If God says we can know then I will trust what He has said.

The knowledge of good and evil are the cause of mankind's sinful nature.
Genesis 2:25 is before and Genesis 3:7 was after.

 

[AustinC]

The knowledge of good and evil are the cause of mankind's sinful nature.
Genesis 2:25 is before and Genesis 3:7 was after.

Nope, not the cause. The knowledge of good and evil is the effect of breaking Covenant with God.
If we take your theory out farther, no child born would be a sinner until they had knowledge of good and evil.

 

[Silverhair]

The knowledge of good and evil are the cause of mankind's sinful nature.
Genesis 2:25 is before and Genesis 3:7 was after.

Agreed, mans ability to know good from evil does allow for man's sinful nature but it also allows for man to make good choices, as in to trust the gospel message and turn it God in faith for ones salvation.

If man were only able to make bad choices then what would be the logic in Christ coming to pay a sin debt. God expects man to make choices Romans 1:18-19 and that is why we have no excuse Romans 1:20 We are expected to be able to understand that God exists and we owe our very existence to Him and thus should turn to Him in faith Act of the Apostles 17:30

 

[37818]

. . . mans ability to know good from evil does allow for man's sinful nature . . .

Yes, but actually is the cause of the sinful nature. But not a cause of a total inablity to hear God's word to believe it.

 

[unprofitable]

Agreed, mans ability to know good from evil does allow for man's sinful nature but it also allows for man to make good choices, as in to trust the gospel message and turn it God in faith for ones salvation.

If man were only able to make bad choices then what would be the logic in Christ coming to pay a sin debt. God expects man to make choices Romans 1:18-19 and that is why we have no excuse Romans 1:20 We are expected to be able to understand that God exists and we owe our very existence to Him and thus should turn to Him in faith Act of the Apostles 17:30

Man had a free will until we fell in Adam. After Adam fell, we could not think a single spiritual thought or make a righteous decision.

Genesis 6:5 says," And God say that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY (without exception) imagination of the thoughts of HIS heart (needed a new one, Ezekiel 36:26) was ONLY EVIL CONTINUALLY. This shows that man was unable to perceive or do the will of God, to turn or return. This ability only comes with a new heart and a new spirit given by Christ. Ezekiel 36:26-27.

What is the result of the new heart and spirit of Christ being placed in his people?
Ezekiel 36:31 Then (after receiving a new heart and spirit) shall ye remember YOUR OWN EVIL WAYS, and doings (works/will) WERE NOT GOOD (there is none good Mark 10:18) and shall loathe yourselves in your own sight (eyes opened) for your iniquities and for your abominations.

To the point that there is none good,

Jer 4:22 For my people is foolish (No sound mind as described in 2 Tim 1:7), they have not known me, they are sottish children, they are wise to do evil, but to do good THEY HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE. (Ability to do good)

Ps 53:3 Every one of them (without exception) is gone back, they are altogether (totally, in entirety) become filthy, there is none that doeth good (but doeth your own evil ways) NO NOT ONE.

AFTER being made alive, we can now blush or be ashamed of our wickedness and lies concerning the work of the hands of God. This ability to be ashamed and confounded leads to repentance from dead works which were our decisions before the life of Christ was given to us.

Jeremiah 6:15 Were they ashamed when they committed abomination, nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush, therefore they shall fall among them that fall, at the time that I visit them, they shall be cast down (thrust out Luke 13:28), saith the Lord. We had a free fallen will to sin. Jeremiah 36:32, Not for your sakes (your evil decisions, self righteousness) do I this, be it know unto you, be ye ashamed and confounded for YOUR OWN ways (vain imaginations of being restored to righteousness and fellowship), O house of Israel.

AFTER we are made alive, then we can do the will of God because we have been given the heart and spirit of Christ that we might know and do his will. Ezekiel 36:27 I will put my spirit within you, and (I WILL) cause you to walk in MY statutes, and ye SHALL keep MY judgments (not your own vain imaginations) AND DO THEM. The ability to make a GOOD DECISION in hearing the words of the covenant and doing them (Jeremiah 11:6) AFTER receiving a new heart and spirit.

 

[Silverhair]

Man had a free will until we fell in Adam. After Adam fell, we could not think a single spiritual thought or make a righteous decision.

Genesis 6:5 says," And God say that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY (without exception) imagination of the thoughts of HIS heart (needed a new one, Ezekiel 36:26) was ONLY EVIL CONTINUALLY. This shows that man was unable to perceive or do the will of God, to turn or return. This ability only comes with a new heart and a new spirit given by Christ. Ezekiel 36:26-27.

What is the result of the new heart and spirit of Christ being placed in his people?
Ezekiel 36:31 Then (after receiving a new heart and spirit) shall ye remember YOUR OWN EVIL WAYS, and doings (works/will) WERE NOT GOOD (there is none good Mark 10:18) and shall loathe yourselves in your own sight (eyes opened) for your iniquities and for your abominations.

To the point that there is none good,

Jer 4:22 For my people is foolish (No sound mind as described in 2 Tim 1:7), they have not known me, they are sottish children, they are wise to do evil, but to do good THEY HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE. (Ability to do good)

Ps 53:3 Every one of them (without exception) is gone back, they are altogether (totally, in entirety) become filthy, there is none that doeth good (but doeth your own evil ways) NO NOT ONE.

AFTER being made alive, we can now blush or be ashamed of our wickedness and lies concerning the work of the hands of God. This ability to be ashamed and confounded leads to repentance from dead works which were our decisions before the life of Christ was given to us.

Jeremiah 6:15 Were they ashamed when they committed abomination, nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush, therefore they shall fall among them that fall, at the time that I visit them, they shall be cast down (thrust out Luke 13:28), saith the Lord. We had a free fallen will to sin. Jeremiah 36:32, Not for your sakes (your evil decisions, self righteousness) do I this, be it know unto you, be ye ashamed and confounded for YOUR OWN ways (vain imaginations of being restored to righteousness and fellowship), O house of Israel.

AFTER we are made alive, then we can do the will of God because we have been given the heart and spirit of Christ that we might know and do his will. Ezekiel 36:27 I will put my spirit within you, and (I WILL) cause you to walk in MY statutes, and ye SHALL keep MY judgments (not your own vain imaginations) AND DO THEM. The ability to make a GOOD DECISION in hearing the words of the covenant and doing them (Jeremiah 11:6) AFTER receiving a new heart and spirit.

Man had a free will until we fell in Adam. After Adam fell, we could not think a single spiritual thought or make a righteous decision.

Did you forget about Abel [Gen_4:4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the LORD respected Abel and his offering,] or what about Cain? God seemed to think Cain could make a righteous decision [Gen 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."]

You refer to Genesis 6:5 but I would say you have taken the idea of “intent” to far. To say that man could not is different from would not. Man has the ability to make real choices as the bible shows and God expects.

You quote Ezekiel 36:26-27 but you have taken it out of context to support your theology. The chapter is about the restoration of Israel to the land and them turning back to God. All through the OT we see Israel follow the same pattern. Worship God, turn away from God, be punished by God, turn back to God.

If we held to your idea that God has to give you a new heart so that you are able to believe in Him then what do you say about those that do not believe? Why are they judged for not believing if they can only do so if God has given them the ability to do so. Now you may say well they never would have trusted in Christ but the reality as you present it is that they never could have.

So while man sins man also has the ability to trust in Christ. That is why we have the gospel and man is held responsible for rejecting the only means of salvation, faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[37818]

This ability to be ashamed . . .

Is a direct result from our sinful nature, Genesis 3:7. Before our sinful nature, Genesis 2:25.

 

[unprofitable]

The ability to be ashamed is the result of the life of Christ in his people. Those who were not ashamed thought that the works they did were pleasing to God as Cain did of his sacrifice.

 

[Silverhair]

The ability to be ashamed is the result of the life of Christ in his people. Those who were not ashamed thought that the works they did were pleasing to God as Cain did of his sacrifice.

So you are saying that those that do not have Christ in them can not be ashamed? If that were true than how would the Holy Spirit convict anyone?

 

[unprofitable]

Man had a free will until we fell in Adam. After Adam fell, we could not think a single spiritual thought or make a righteous decision.

Did you forget about Abel [Gen_4:4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the LORD respected Abel and his offering,] or what about Cain? God seemed to think Cain could make a righteous decision [Gen 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."]

You refer to Genesis 6:5 but I would say you have taken the idea of “intent” to far. To say that man could not is different from would not. Man has the ability to make real choices as the bible shows and God expects.

You quote Ezekiel 36:26-27 but you have taken it out of context to support your theology. The chapter is about the restoration of Israel to the land and them turning back to God. All through the OT we see Israel follow the same pattern. Worship God, turn away from God, be punished by God, turn back to God.

If we held to your idea that God has to give you a new heart so that you are able to believe in Him then what do you say about those that do not believe? Why are they judged for not believing if they can only do so if God has given them the ability to do so. Now you may say well they never would have trusted in Christ but the reality as you present it is that they never could have.

So while man sins man also has the ability to trust in Christ. That is why we have the gospel and man is held responsible for rejecting the only means of salvation, faith in Christ Jesus.

Is a direct result from our sinful nature, Genesis 3:7. Before our sinful nature, Genesis 2:25.

Abel brought of the firstborn of the flock because he had been instructed by Adam who showed him the right way. Cain who thought his sacrifice was righteous. God had already shown the pattern of Christ in the lamb of sacrifice. Yet Cain, being of a wicked mind and vain imagination, rebelled against the covenant pattern. The Father knew that Cain would be rebellious because he could do no good as I have already pointed out. Without the life of Christ in us and the Holy Spirit to guide us in what is righteous we would never walk according to his statutes and judgments. If you think that Ezekiel 36 has not been already accomplished in the body of Christ, you have not seen the kingdom of God and his rightousness.

All fell in Adam and could not rightly seek the Lord (in Spirit and truth John 4:23-24) as example by Israel going after the gods of the nations. The only thing the unrighteous can do is make up their own way of salvation as is exampled in free will theology. All having fell then God must provide THE WAY to those to whom he had given the Son. Those who do not believe simply follow on in their own fallen vain imaginations of "whom say ye that I am" (Matt 15:16) Therefore, we understand it is not of him that runneth. Jeremiah 23:21 I have not sent these prophets BUT THEY RAN, I have not spoken to them YET THEY PROPHESIED. They did this by their own will and not according to knowledge (Romans 10:2) This is the the understanding of Romans 9:16 Those who do not have the life of Christ follow along with them and they love to have it so.(Jeremiah 5:31) They LOVE DARKNESS rather than light (John 3:19) Verse 20 says that those who HATE THE LIGHT of the knowledge of the only true God (John 17:3) WILL NOT (because of a defiled will) come to the light. Since they hate the light, then they hate God and the godhead. They will not come to the light lest their deeds be reproved by right doctrine.. Because they do not have the light of life, they hate instruction or right doctrine and will not be subject unto it. Again, Cain is the perfect example. He thought he had a better idea (self righteous thought) than the instruction given unto him by Adam who preached unto him the way of righteousness. But we LOVE HIM because he FIRST LOVE US (1 John 4:19) That means we chose him because he first chose us.

Christ says in Matthew 15:14 Let them alone, they be blind leaders of the blind. Leave them to their own devices or the thoughts of the will of man.

God commands all men to seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness (Matthew 6:33) In that all men are made accountable. Only those that He enables thru the life of his Son can keep that covenant command. John 3:3

 

[unprofitable]

So you are saying that those that do not have Christ in them can not be ashamed? If that were true than how would the Holy Spirit convict anyone?[/QUOT

Simple. Those to whom he has given HIS life can compare it to the wicked life and evil doctrine they had followed and repent. This is only possible by the Holy Spirit show us (working in us) to show us HIS righteousness and kingdom.

 

[unprofitable]

I messed up on the reply function but you can still read it.