God created man with a will of his own.

[Silverhair]

Abel brought of the firstborn of the flock because he had been instructed by Adam who showed him the right way. Cain who thought his sacrifice was righteous. God had already shown the pattern of Christ in the lamb of sacrifice. Yet Cain, being of a wicked mind and vain imagination, rebelled against the covenant pattern. The Father knew that Cain would be rebellious because he could do no good as I have already pointed out. Without the life of Christ in us and the Holy Spirit to guide us in what is righteous we would never walk according to his statutes and judgments. If you think that Ezekiel 36 has not been already accomplished in the body of Christ, you have not seen the kingdom of God and his rightousness.

All fell in Adam and could not rightly seek the Lord (in Spirit and truth John 4:23-24) as example by Israel going after the gods of the nations. The only thing the unrighteous can do is make up their own way of salvation as is exampled in free will theology. All having fell then God must provide THE WAY to those to whom he had given the Son. Those who do not believe simply follow on in their own fallen vain imaginations of "whom say ye that I am" (Matt 15:16) Therefore, we understand it is not of him that runneth. Jeremiah 23:21 I have not sent these prophets BUT THEY RAN, I have not spoken to them YET THEY PROPHESIED. They did this by their own will and not according to knowledge (Romans 10:2) This is the the understanding of Romans 9:16 Those who do not have the life of Christ follow along with them and they love to have it so.(Jeremiah 5:31) They LOVE DARKNESS rather than light (John 3:19) Verse 20 says that those who HATE THE LIGHT of the knowledge of the only true God (John 17:3) WILL NOT (because of a defiled will) come to the light. Since they hate the light, then they hate God and the godhead. They will not come to the light lest their deeds be reproved by right doctrine.. Because they do not have the light of life, they hate instruction or right doctrine and will not be subject unto it. Again, Cain is the perfect example. He thought he had a better idea (self righteous thought) than the instruction given unto him by Adam who preached unto him the way of righteousness. But we LOVE HIM because he FIRST LOVE US (1 John 4:19) That means we chose him because he first chose us.

Christ says in Matthew 15:14 Let them alone, they be blind leaders of the blind. Leave them to their own devices or the thoughts of the will of man.

God commands all men to seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness (Matthew 6:33) In that all men are made accountable. Only those that He enables thru the life of his Son can keep that covenant command. John 3:3

You are reading your theology into what you have said regarding Abel. We are told in Hebrews 11:4 that Abel's offering was "by faith," so you are in disagreement with the bible on this.

Ezekiel 36 is written to and for the Jews. I understand that you are looking at this through your calvinist lens and that is your right. But when you read your view into the bible and expect others to agree with it in opposition to what the bible teaches then I have to disagree with you.

It is your calvinist theology that says we all lost our free will due to the sin of Adam not the bible. I do notice that you like to cobble together verses from all over the bible in the attempt to support your view. And you even have told us that what the bible says is actually not right as you have to give us the right meaning. That may work for you but since we know that many false theologies do that all the time to support their errant view I am surprised that you would expect me to believe what you have said.

I have one more thing to add. If as you say man has no free will then what do you make of Romans 6:16?

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Do you not know G1492 (G5758)
you present G3936 (G5719) yourselves slaves
whom you obey G5219 (G5719)

All these verbs are in the active voice.
The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.

Are we to understand from what you are saying that God makes people become slaves to sin because that is where your theology leads.

 

[George Antonios]

They lost their free will per Romans 6:16, ". . . Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, . . ."

A) Let's finish the verse:

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

B) That very verse proves post-fall free will:

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[unprofitable]

You are reading your theology into what you have said regarding Abel. We are told in Hebrews 11:4 that Abel's offering was "by faith," so you are in disagreement with the bible on this.

Ezekiel 36 is written to and for the Jews. I understand that you are looking at this through your calvinist lens and that is your right. But when you read your view into the bible and expect others to agree with it in opposition to what the bible teaches then I have to disagree with you.

It is your calvinist theology that says we all lost our free will due to the sin of Adam not the bible. I do notice that you like to cobble together verses from all over the bible in the attempt to support your view. And you even have told us that what the bible says is actually not right as you have to give us the right meaning. That may work for you but since we know that many false theologies do that all the time to support their errant view I am surprised that you would expect me to believe what you have said.

I have one more thing to add. If as you say man has no free will then what do you make of Romans 6:16?

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Do you not know G1492 (G5758)
you present G3936 (G5719) yourselves slaves
whom you obey G5219 (G5719)

All these verbs are in the active voice.
The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.

Are we to understand from what you are saying that God makes people become slaves to sin because that is where your theology leads.

How did Abel know to bring a lamb of the flock? Could it be because the Lord had already shown Adam in Genesis 3:21? Absolutely. We are all instructed by the Holy Spirit by righteous men who are the true witnesses of God. That is why we have pastors. How can they believe in whom they have not heard and how can they hear without a preacher. Romans 10:14. Sound familiar. Same happened with Abel and Cain.

Adam taught/preached to both Abel and Cain. Abel understood the righteousness of Christ in the sacrifice (faith in/by Christ) and Cain added to or defiled scripture and brought an offering of his own hands. Apparently, you do not understand this.

In regard to Ezekiel 36. If this chapter is only to national Israel, then are you saying that those in Christ NOW do not have a new heart and a new spirit? How then are we made alive without a new heart and spirit? The context of new is alive. Verse 26 clearly says, "I WILL take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I WILL give you an heart of flesh (living). Has that not happened to us yet? It is certainly used abundantly by commentators as happening now, and if not happening now how do we divorce it from the promises made to make us alive in Christ? Has no one been made alive in Christ yet? That is what you are saying if Ezekiel 36 only belongs to national Israel.

Has there not been a kingdom since Christ was here? Ezekiel 36 is certainly taking about a kingdom covenant people. Since you say it belongs to national Israel, what people did Christ give the kingdom to in Matthew 21:43? It is the same people to whom he gave a new heart and a new spirit because if the kingdom does not exist NOW then to whom was the Holy Spirit given? Are the gentile nations still waiting for the Holy Spirit? Tell that to Cornelius and his household.

Your application of Romans 6:16 is entirely without merit or credibility. The verse is Paul warning the church at Rome to beware and not go back under or be IN SUBJECTION to the teachings of the Law wherein they were called out. They were acting like Israel did when delivered out of Egypt.in rebelling against Moses and making them a captain to return into captivity. They were rebelling against the kingdom of God.

No you are not to understand God makes people become slaves to sin. When we fell in Adam as our federal head, we became the servants of sin. Only God in his mercy will deliver whom he will.

As far as Calvin, I have no respect for him in that he hated the Baptists and wanted them destroyed. Just because someone believes in the sovereignity of God, that does not make them a calvinist.

 

[kyredneck]

As far as Calvin, I have no respect for him in that he hated the Baptists and wanted them destroyed. Just because someone believes in the sovereignity of God, that does not make them a calvinist.

AMEN BROTHER!

 

[unprofitable]

Ezekiel 36 deals with the prophesy of the new covenant kingdom. If there are those in national Israel that will be saved, it will be through the same new covenant by which we are saved by the knowledge of the only true God and/thru Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent (down from above).

Christ said in John 17:9 I PRAY FOR them (kingdom of God in the midst); I PRAY NOT for the world but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine.

He repeats in John 14:17 Even the spirit of truth whom the world CANNOT receive, because it seeth him not (his kingdom and righteousness) neither knoweth him (because the world cannot receive the spirit of truth, not being born from above), but ye know him for he dwelleth with you and SHALL BE in you (and ye shall be my people, they are thine, and I will be your God Ezekiel 36:27)

Since the world CANNOT receive the spirit of truth, Christ does not make intercession for it that it be in unity/be made one with the kingdom of God as the body of Christ. Why would he since the world can only war against the kingdom of God?
Wherein then is their freewill to enter into the kingdom?

 

[Silverhair]

How did Abel know to bring a lamb of the flock? Could it be because the Lord had already shown Adam in Genesis 3:21? Absolutely. We are all instructed by the Holy Spirit by righteous men who are the true witnesses of God. That is why we have pastors. How can they believe in whom they have not heard and how can they hear without a preacher. Romans 10:14. Sound familiar. Same happened with Abel and Cain.

Adam taught/preached to both Abel and Cain. Abel understood the righteousness of Christ in the sacrifice (faith in/by Christ) and Cain added to or defiled scripture and brought an offering of his own hands. Apparently, you do not understand this.

In regard to Ezekiel 36. If this chapter is only to national Israel, then are you saying that those in Christ NOW do not have a new heart and a new spirit? How then are we made alive without a new heart and spirit? The context of new is alive. Verse 26 clearly says, "I WILL take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I WILL give you an heart of flesh (living). Has that not happened to us yet? It is certainly used abundantly by commentators as happening now, and if not happening now how do we divorce it from the promises made to make us alive in Christ? Has no one been made alive in Christ yet? That is what you are saying if Ezekiel 36 only belongs to national Israel.

Has there not been a kingdom since Christ was here? Ezekiel 36 is certainly taking about a kingdom covenant people. Since you say it belongs to national Israel, what people did Christ give the kingdom to in Matthew 21:43? It is the same people to whom he gave a new heart and a new spirit because if the kingdom does not exist NOW then to whom was the Holy Spirit given? Are the gentile nations still waiting for the Holy Spirit? Tell that to Cornelius and his household.

Your application of Romans 6:16 is entirely without merit or credibility. The verse is Paul warning the church at Rome to beware and not go back under or be IN SUBJECTION to the teachings of the Law wherein they were called out. They were acting like Israel did when delivered out of Egypt.in rebelling against Moses and making them a captain to return into captivity. They were rebelling against the kingdom of God.

No you are not to understand God makes people become slaves to sin. When we fell in Adam as our federal head, we became the servants of sin. Only God in his mercy will deliver whom he will.

As far as Calvin, I have no respect for him in that he hated the Baptists and wanted them destroyed. Just because someone believes in the sovereignity of God, that does not make them a calvinist.

I am not questioning where Abel learned to bring a lamb I am saying that the reason he did so was because he trusted in the God of his father. Do you think the Holy Spirit got it wrong in Hebrews 11:4 and that it really was not by faith?

Did you miss the part where I pointed out Hebrews 11:4. What do you think I did not understand?

What you said regarding Eze 36 did not look at the whole chapter. If you had even gone back one verse you would have seen that it was because of repentance of Israel that they would have a new heart & spirit.

“For His holy name's sake the Lord will bring Israel back from its dispersion into His own land, purify it from its sins, and sanctify it by His Spirit to be His own people. These verses show in what way the Lord will have compassion upon His holy name, and how He will put an end to the scoffing thereat, and vindicate His honour in the sight of the heathen. “Nor for your sake,” i.e., not because you have any claim to deliverance on account of your behaviour (cf. Isa_48:11 and Deu_9:6), but for my holy name's sake.” Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament Eze_36:22-28

You have said this in reference to Eze 36:26-27

“This shows that man was unable to perceive or do the will of God, to turn or return. This ability only comes with a new heart and a new spirit given by Christ.”

If we held to your idea that God has to give you a new heart so that you are able to believe in Him then what do you say about those that do not believe? Why are they judged for not believing if they can only do so if God has given them the ability to do so. Now you may say well they never would have trusted in Christ but the reality as you present it is that they never could have.

As for those that have trusted in Christ Jesus, of course they have a new heart and Spirit within them. But Eze 36 was not written for them as anyone to get the Holy Spirit they have to have trusted in Christ on this side of the cross. That seems to be a concept that you do not comprehend.

How is it possible that you can draw such illogical ideas from a text. Those in Matthew 21:43 that lost the kingdom were the Jews because they did not believe that Christ was the Messiah they were awaiting.

“They {Jews} had been the children of the kingdom, or under the reign of God; having his law and acknowledging him as King. They had been his chosen and special people, but he says that now this privilege would be taken away; that they would cease to be the special people of God, and that the blessing would be given to a nation who would bring forth the fruits thereof, or “be righteous” that is, to the Gentiles, Act_28:28.” Barnes

I find your comments regarding Romans 6:16 to be just a bit disingenuous. You want to apply Eze 36:25-26 to the gentiles and yet you disagree with what Paul writes to the Christians in Rome.

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

“Those indicate choice/free will. The person has to choose whom they will obey.”

My question for you is what was Paul doing in that verse? He was admonishing them to exercise their free will with care. Choose who they would serve, that is free will. Even your own words indicate free will “The verse is Paul warning the church at Rome to beware and not go back under or be IN SUBJECTION to the teachings of the Law wherein they were called out. ”

Have you read Genesis 3:17-19? What I do not find in that text is Adam lost his free will. What I do find in Genesis 3:22 is that Adam had the ability to know good from evil. And if we look at Romans 5:14 we see that death was one of the curses that came down to us.

With Adams’ sin sin entered the world but you have taken that to the point beyond where it should be. You have taken it to total inability which is not a biblical concept. That idea is something that you bring into the scriptures.

 

[Silverhair]

Ezekiel 36 deals with the prophesy of the new covenant kingdom. If there are those in national Israel that will be saved, it will be through the same new covenant by which we are saved by the knowledge of the only true God and/thru Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent (down from above).

Christ said in John 17:9 I PRAY FOR them (kingdom of God in the midst); I PRAY NOT for the world but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine.

He repeats in John 14:17 Even the spirit of truth whom the world CANNOT receive, because it seeth him not (his kingdom and righteousness) neither knoweth him (because the world cannot receive the spirit of truth, not being born from above), but ye know him for he dwelleth with you and SHALL BE in you (and ye shall be my people, they are thine, and I will be your God Ezekiel 36:27)

Since the world CANNOT receive the spirit of truth, Christ does not make intercession for it that it be in unity/be made one with the kingdom of God as the body of Christ. Why would he since the world can only war against the kingdom of God?
Wherein then is their freewill to enter into the kingdom?

Eze 36 deals with Israel at that time and with Israel that we will see in the end times. Those of the Jews that come to trust Christ Jesus will be saved just as the rest.

John 17:9 is Christ praying for those that had trusted in Him as the Messiah prior to His death and resurrection. He further prayed for the all those in the world that would come to know and trust in Him through teachings. Spoke at that time and written now. John 17:20

The world that does not receive the Holy Spirit (John 14:17) are those that reject Christ Jesus as Lord. You seem to struggle with accepting the truth of scripture. You seem to look past verses that tell us that Christ came to save the world 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 1 John 2:2, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Man does not have the free will to save himself or as you put it “enter into the kingdom” but we do have the God given ability to respond to the gospel message and we will be judged by our response. Ephesians 1:13, John 3:14-16 Christ did not come to judge but to save but He will only save those that believe in Him John 3:17-18. Those that freely reach out to Christ in faith will be saved Romans 10:13. That my friend is free will plain and simple.

 

[unprofitable]

I am not questioning where Abel learned to bring a lamb I am saying that the reason he did so was because he trusted in the God of his father. Do you think the Holy Spirit got it wrong in Hebrews 11:4 and that it really was not by faith?

Did you miss the part where I pointed out Hebrews 11:4. What do you think I did not understand?

What you said regarding Eze 36 did not look at the whole chapter. If you had even gone back one verse you would have seen that it was because of repentance of Israel that they would have a new heart & spirit.

“For His holy name's sake the Lord will bring Israel back from its dispersion into His own land, purify it from its sins, and sanctify it by His Spirit to be His own people. These verses show in what way the Lord will have compassion upon His holy name, and how He will put an end to the scoffing thereat, and vindicate His honour in the sight of the heathen. “Nor for your sake,” i.e., not because you have any claim to deliverance on account of your behaviour (cf. Isa_48:11 and Deu_9:6), but for my holy name's sake.” Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament Eze_36:22-28

You have said this in reference to Eze 36:26-27

“This shows that man was unable to perceive or do the will of God, to turn or return. This ability only comes with a new heart and a new spirit given by Christ.”

If we held to your idea that God has to give you a new heart so that you are able to believe in Him then what do you say about those that do not believe? Why are they judged for not believing if they can only do so if God has given them the ability to do so. Now you may say well they never would have trusted in Christ but the reality as you present it is that they never could have.

As for those that have trusted in Christ Jesus, of course they have a new heart and Spirit within them. But Eze 36 was not written for them as anyone to get the Holy Spirit they have to have trusted in Christ on this side of the cross. That seems to be a concept that you do not comprehend.

How is it possible that you can draw such illogical ideas from a text. Those in Matthew 21:43 that lost the kingdom were the Jews because they did not believe that Christ was the Messiah they were awaiting.

“They {Jews} had been the children of the kingdom, or under the reign of God; having his law and acknowledging him as King. They had been his chosen and special people, but he says that now this privilege would be taken away; that they would cease to be the special people of God, and that the blessing would be given to a nation who would bring forth the fruits thereof, or “be righteous” that is, to the Gentiles, Act_28:28.” Barnes

I find your comments regarding Romans 6:16 to be just a bit disingenuous. You want to apply Eze 36:25-26 to the gentiles and yet you disagree with what Paul writes to the Christians in Rome.

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

“Those indicate choice/free will. The person has to choose whom they will obey.”

My question for you is what was Paul doing in that verse? He was admonishing them to exercise their free will with care. Choose who they would serve, that is free will. Even your own words indicate free will “The verse is Paul warning the church at Rome to beware and not go back under or be IN SUBJECTION to the teachings of the Law wherein they were called out. ”

Have you read Genesis 3:17-19? What I do not find in that text is Adam lost his free will. What I do find in Genesis 3:22 is that Adam had the ability to know good from evil. And if we look at Romans 5:14 we see that death was one of the curses that came down to us.

With Adams’ sin sin entered the world but you have taken that to the point beyond where it should be. You have taken it to total inability which is not a biblical concept. That idea is something that you bring into the scriptures.

I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that I was believing that Abel offered a sacrifice without having faith. Part of his faith was that the sacrifice he offered was that which was commanded by the Lord. Cain offered a sacrifice in faith but it was in the defiled belief that it was acceptable to the Lord.

Going back a verse in Ezekiel I find the Lord condemning Israel for their lies. They were scattered for unbelief yet the Lord would sanctify his name. Vs 23 says, And I WILL sanctify my great name which was profaned among the nations, which YE HAVE profaned in the midst of them, and the nations shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I SHALL be sanctified in you before their eyes. Vs 24 For I WILL take you from among the nations, and GATHER YOU out of all countries, and (I) WILL bring you into your own land.(Mt 16:18) I don't see any of your me, me, me doctrine in this but rather the great I AM doing the I WILL. Verses 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, and 30 are full of the I WILL. We also see the same line of thought in the I SHALL statements of the same chapter. I do not see the ability of man to be able to do anything but defile the name of the Lord because of their lies and self righteousness. This is very evident in Ezekiel 36:23.

My question was NOT from whom was the kingdom taken, but TO WHOM was it given? You rightly use some else's quote that it was the gentiles but more specifically the church into which the gentiles would now have a part. They would NOW be a part of the kingdom of God of which Christ spoke in Matt 16:18 that "upon this rock I WILL (there comes that pesky phrase again) build (gaather) my church (nation,people) and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Did Israel gather herself or did the Lord gather her. He plainly points out he did. He was not waiting for her to return but had determined a time and a place when HE WOULD cause her to return See above Ezekiel 36:24. ALL the work of the Lord and none of man as you propose.

Paul knew that there were those in the church at Rome that would turn back because of the persecutions of which Christ spoke in Matthew 13. He also knew there were false brethren, false prophets, and false Christ's that would try to cause them to go back under the Law. These are those spoken of in Jude that were spots in their feasts which never had the life of Christ in them to begin with. Such is the kingdom. They, while professing Christ, have never believed. Christ said in John 8:44 Ye ARE of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father YE WILL do. Christ tells them that is ALL that they can do. He goes on to say in Luke 16:21 ...neither will they be persuaded (BELIEVE) though one rose from the dead. I can find no man made ability to believe in either of these verses.

You say man cannot save himself but has been given the ability to believe the gospel. What about those I just spoke of in Luke 16:21 that says they WILL NOT be persuaded (BELIEVE). How could Christ say that if he had given them the ability to believe? How could he know that unless he had predestined it? Why would he not wait until their death bed for a confession of faith instead of saying what he did? Did he take away their chance to believe before they died?

Or is it rather as in Philippians 1:29 For unto you IT IS GIVEN (Eze 36:26 A new heart also WILL I GIVE you, and a new spirit WILL I put within you) in the behalf of Christ (ordained by the I WILL) not only TO BELIEVE on him, but also to suffer for his sake. This is in agreement with John 6:35 which says, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it WERE GIVEN unto him of my Father.
This is the god given ability. It is the ability TO BELIEVE. It is not the ability to NOT BELIEVE.

 

[unprofitable]

The ability to not believe is taken away in the receiving of a new heart and new spirit. It is the concept of being made captives of righteousness (Rom 6:18)
Eph 3:11 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of HIM.
It is HIS faith and it has been given to those truly in him. They CANNOT not believe because it is HIS FAITH working in us.
Those truly in him will never turn back.

 

[Silverhair]

I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that I was believing that Abel offered a sacrifice without having faith. Part of his faith was that the sacrifice he offered was that which was commanded by the Lord. Cain offered a sacrifice in faith but it was in the defiled belief that it was acceptable to the Lord.

Going back a verse in Ezekiel I find the Lord condemning Israel for their lies. They were scattered for unbelief yet the Lord would sanctify his name. Vs 23 says, And I WILL sanctify my great name which was profaned among the nations, which YE HAVE profaned in the midst of them, and the nations shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I SHALL be sanctified in you before their eyes. Vs 24 For I WILL take you from among the nations, and GATHER YOU out of all countries, and (I) WILL bring you into your own land.(Mt 16:18) I don't see any of your me, me, me doctrine in this but rather the great I AM doing the I WILL. Verses 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, and 30 are full of the I WILL. We also see the same line of thought in the I SHALL statements of the same chapter. I do not see the ability of man to be able to do anything but defile the name of the Lord because of their lies and self righteousness. This is very evident in Ezekiel 36:23.

My question was NOT from whom was the kingdom taken, but TO WHOM was it given? You rightly use some else's quote that it was the gentiles but more specifically the church into which the gentiles would now have a part. They would NOW be a part of the kingdom of God of which Christ spoke in Matt 16:18 that "upon this rock I WILL (there comes that pesky phrase again) build (gaather) my church (nation,people) and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Did Israel gather herself or did the Lord gather her. He plainly points out he did. He was not waiting for her to return but had determined a time and a place when HE WOULD cause her to return See above Ezekiel 36:24. ALL the work of the Lord and none of man as you propose.

Paul knew that there were those in the church at Rome that would turn back because of the persecutions of which Christ spoke in Matthew 13. He also knew there were false brethren, false prophets, and false Christ's that would try to cause them to go back under the Law. These are those spoken of in Jude that were spots in their feasts which never had the life of Christ in them to begin with. Such is the kingdom. They, while professing Christ, have never believed. Christ said in John 8:44 Ye ARE of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father YE WILL do. Christ tells them that is ALL that they can do. He goes on to say in Luke 16:21 ...neither will they be persuaded (BELIEVE) though one rose from the dead. I can find no man made ability to believe in either of these verses.

You say man cannot save himself but has been given the ability to believe the gospel. What about those I just spoke of in Luke 16:21 that says they WILL NOT be persuaded (BELIEVE). How could Christ say that if he had given them the ability to believe? How could he know that unless he had predestined it? Why would he not wait until their death bed for a confession of faith instead of saying what he did? Did he take away their chance to believe before they died?

Or is it rather as in Philippians 1:29 For unto you IT IS GIVEN (Eze 36:26 A new heart also WILL I GIVE you, and a new spirit WILL I put within you) in the behalf of Christ (ordained by the I WILL) not only TO BELIEVE on him, but also to suffer for his sake. This is in agreement with John 6:35 which says, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it WERE GIVEN unto him of my Father.
This is the god given ability. It is the ability TO BELIEVE. It is not the ability to NOT BELIEVE.

What did I say regarding Israel "Eze 36 deals with Israel at that time and with Israel that we will see in the end times. Those of the Jews that come to trust Christ Jesus will be saved just as the rest." Since you keep saying that man can do nothing in the way of trusting in God then it makes be wonder if you have heard of the gospel message? There are only two options 1] man freely trusts in God or 2] God forces man to trust in Him. Which option do you choose?

{Ability Moral power, depending on the will - a metaphysical and theological sense.} Webster
{Compulsion The act of driving or urging by force, physical or moral; force applied; constraint of the will; the application of a force that is irresistible.}
You are confusing these two things. You seem to have this idea that God given ability equals compulsion. God has given man the ability to make real choices that means they can accept or reject Christ Jesus. They can decide not to be persuaded not to trust in Christ.

You have taken Philippians 1:29 out of context. These are believers that are given not only the privilege of trusting in Christ but also the privilege of suffering for Him.

When you take verses out of context as you have been doing you can make the bible support just about any view that you want.

 

[unprofitable]

What did I say regarding Israel "Eze 36 deals with Israel at that time and with Israel that we will see in the end times. Those of the Jews that come to trust Christ Jesus will be saved just as the rest." Since you keep saying that man can do nothing in the way of trusting in God then it makes be wonder if you have heard of the gospel message? There are only two options 1] man freely trusts in God or 2] God forces man to trust in Him. Which option do you choose?

{Ability Moral power, depending on the will - a metaphysical and theological sense.} Webster
{Compulsion The act of driving or urging by force, physical or moral; force applied; constraint of the will; the application of a force that is irresistible.}
You are confusing these two things. You seem to have this idea that God given ability equals compulsion. God has given man the ability to make real choices that means they can accept or reject Christ Jesus. They can decide not to be persuaded not to trust in Christ.

You have taken Philippians 1:29 out of context. These are believers that are given not only the privilege of trusting in Christ but also the privilege of suffering for Him.

When you take verses out of context as you have been doing you can make the bible support just about any view that you want.

Here is where we differ. You say one of the two options is that God forces man to trust him. To a degree, that is true. When we were under the law of sin and death, the scriptures said we loved darkness (John 3:19) We held to our self-will and self-righteous teaching in a death grip. Surely God needed us to give him our permission and to approve his work before he started. But without having the Holy Spirit to guide us, we could only repeat over and over our false theology like a scratched record.

We would not admit that his works were completed in Christ from before the foundation of the world. (Ephesians 1:4) We believed that the Father was waiting on us for our OK to save us. We looked at him as someone looking in a crystal ball to see who would agree to his love and were blind to the scripture that Christ already had a book filled with the names he had written in it before the foundation of the world. (Rev 13:8, 17:8) He didn't need to wait to know because he had already written the names in it in the context of the everlasting covenant made before the foundation of the world. In writing it before the foundation of the world, he declared exactly everyone or lively stone that would go into the raising up of the city of the Lord, the spiritual new Jerusalem. He knew the exact cost. (Luke 14:28).

Now if Christ is depending or waiting on us, how can he know that there will be sufficient to finish the city? There is a parallel understanding of the construction of the tabernacle in the wilderness. The Lord gave Moses the blueprint and told him, "See saith he, that thou make ALL THINGS according to the pattern/blueprint shewed thee in the mount." He gave him the exactly numbers needed to complete the tabernacle. Those numbers and their likeness being according to the express image of Christ (Hebrews 1:3) are already written in the book. Otherwise, Christ could not give us a covenant where he could say that the gates of hell would not prevail against his church/people by cutting in short by violence. (continuing in another post)

 

[unprofitable]

Continued-
As to you point of "forcing" us to believe. We, in our unregenerate state of the error of unbelief, may have resisted his wooing. Isa 53:2 says, "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground, he hath no form nor comeliness, and when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
But when HE GAVE us HIS faith that we might rightly see who he was and the love he had for us, when HE TOOK our blinders off as of a blindfolded prisoner of war, and saw Him as our rightful husband, then we READILY desired His love, willingly and righteously. There is no more forcing. We had been MADE alive that we might love him. We love him, because he first loved us. (1 John 4:19) Wherein we were a whorish woman, we are now without spot and blameless before him in love, made a virgin.
By the way, Jewish custom was that the Father chose the bride for the Son, the bride did not decide this.

All of God. None of man.

Lastly, you said the I had taken Phil 1:29 out of context. You said that God had given us the privilege to believe and suffer. I agree it is a privilege but it is still God enabling us to believe, that we might receive the privilege, not the other way around. Anything more is mental gymnastics.

 

[Silverhair]

Here is where we differ. You say one of the two options is that God forces man to trust him. To a degree, that is true. When we were under the law of sin and death, the scriptures said we loved darkness (John 3:19) We held to our self-will and self-righteous teaching in a death grip. Surely God needed us to give him our permission and to approve his work before he started. But without having the Holy Spirit to guide us, we could only repeat over and over our false theology like a scratched record.

We would not admit that his works were completed in Christ from before the foundation of the world. (Ephesians 1:4) We believed that the Father was waiting on us for our OK to save us. We looked at him as someone looking in a crystal ball to see who would agree to his love and were blind to the scripture that Christ already had a book filled with the names he had written in it before the foundation of the world. (Rev 13:8, 17:8) He didn't need to wait to know because he had already written the names in it in the context of the everlasting covenant made before the foundation of the world. In writing it before the foundation of the world, he declared exactly everyone or lively stone that would go into the raising up of the city of the Lord, the spiritual new Jerusalem. He knew the exact cost. (Luke 14:28).

Now if Christ is depending or waiting on us, how can he know that there will be sufficient to finish the city? There is a parallel understanding of the construction of the tabernacle in the wilderness. The Lord gave Moses the blueprint and told him, "See saith he, that thou make ALL THINGS according to the pattern/blueprint shewed thee in the mount." He gave him the exactly numbers needed to complete the tabernacle. Those numbers and their likeness being according to the express image of Christ (Hebrews 1:3) are already written in the book. Otherwise, Christ could not give us a covenant where he could say that the gates of hell would not prevail against his church/people by cutting in short by violence. (continuing in another post)

I must say you have a very negative view of how God deals with His creation. You must be a very hard core determinist.

 

[AustinC]

I must say you have a very negative view of how God deals with His creation. You must be a very hard core determinist.

I must say you have a very positive view of the human condition, imaging humans are wonderful without God's help. You must be a very hard core humanist.