Compare to Mal. 2:16 "For I hate divorce," says the Lord, the God of Israel, "and him who covers his garment with wrong," says the Lord of hosts. "So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously."
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God does not love all mankind
- Thread starter Forest
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It is very difficult to escape the fact that God not only hates sin, as stated numerous times in scriptures, but also hates the wicked, as stated in verses like the following:
Again, I'm not arguing that God does not love them, but it would seem to be untrue to the testimony of scripture to say God does not hate them. (and the context of these verses does not seem to allow for a simple "loves them less" interpretation)
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On another note, it keeps coming up that different views of God's hate will affect how I view my fellow man. Some say that if God is capable of hate, then it means that people are more loving than God. To this, I have two thoughts:
1. There is no way for us to comprehend the love and hate of God, other than what he has told us in his word. His ways are higher than our ways, and it is dangerous for me to say the exact opposite of what a verse of scripture says because I feel that my enlightened understanding of God and his ways leads me to a different conclusion.
2. Consider these verses, written by psalmists about their own attitudes about the wicked:
Now, I don't really know how to apply these verse today in my life, but they are there, and they aren't going away. So...
-Is the psalmist here expressing their honest attitudes, but not necessarily an attitude that would please God? It seems that the psalmist's own attitude is that his hate for the wicked is a good thing. Is he mistaken?
-Jesus said that we are to love our enemies, when we do we will be like our Father in heaven, who loves his enemies. After considering Old and New testaments, I am left with the conclusion that God both hates and loves the wicked. How? I don't know.
Again, I'm not arguing that God does not love them, but it would seem to be untrue to the testimony of scripture to say God does not hate them. (and the context of these verses does not seem to allow for a simple "loves them less" interpretation)
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On another note, it keeps coming up that different views of God's hate will affect how I view my fellow man. Some say that if God is capable of hate, then it means that people are more loving than God. To this, I have two thoughts:
1. There is no way for us to comprehend the love and hate of God, other than what he has told us in his word. His ways are higher than our ways, and it is dangerous for me to say the exact opposite of what a verse of scripture says because I feel that my enlightened understanding of God and his ways leads me to a different conclusion.
2. Consider these verses, written by psalmists about their own attitudes about the wicked:
Now, I don't really know how to apply these verse today in my life, but they are there, and they aren't going away. So...
-Is the psalmist here expressing their honest attitudes, but not necessarily an attitude that would please God? It seems that the psalmist's own attitude is that his hate for the wicked is a good thing. Is he mistaken?
-Jesus said that we are to love our enemies, when we do we will be like our Father in heaven, who loves his enemies. After considering Old and New testaments, I am left with the conclusion that God both hates and loves the wicked. How? I don't know.
On a more personal note, I am closely connected to a church in which the Associate Pastor preached from Psalm 11 and said from the pulpit, "God hates the wicked." which is what the text says. He preached it as a warning to those who would not submit to God. He then followed it immediately with the love of God, that God sent his son to die for those same sinners, that they needed to repent and accept God's gift of salvation that God offered because his love.
After this sermon, the senior pastor made the associate pastor apologize publicly to the church or face losing his job (he had been there about 4 years at this time). He was actually submissive and willing to do this, and wrote an apology stating that on further reflection, his emphasis of God's hate was too strong, and he would apologize for not being sensitive enough to the nuances of God's character.
The senior pastor would not accept this version, and made him edit it to say that he was actually wrong to say that God hates anyone, and would promise not to teach that again. This associate pastor did sadly make this recantion, but soon after tendered his resignation as soon as he found another ministry.
It was very sad to see him told that he cannot say from the pulpit something that the bible says.
After this sermon, the senior pastor made the associate pastor apologize publicly to the church or face losing his job (he had been there about 4 years at this time). He was actually submissive and willing to do this, and wrote an apology stating that on further reflection, his emphasis of God's hate was too strong, and he would apologize for not being sensitive enough to the nuances of God's character.
The senior pastor would not accept this version, and made him edit it to say that he was actually wrong to say that God hates anyone, and would promise not to teach that again. This associate pastor did sadly make this recantion, but soon after tendered his resignation as soon as he found another ministry.
It was very sad to see him told that he cannot say from the pulpit something that the bible says.
Sure you do!
Consider the typical parent who is dealing with the terrible two year old!
There isn't a parent that hasn't expressed hatred for that child. Doesn't mean that the parent doesn't love the child, too. Doesn't mean the child will be rejected, abused, neglected... by the parent expressing hate.
Hate is not the absence of love, but rather a tempering which brings justice, judgment, and righteousness, without which God would be unable to demand both eternal rest and eternal torment.
Any pastor worth their salt will have someone or something in which they hate, yet at the same time love.
What becomes problematic is when someone neglects one side and favors the other. Then all matter of evil will prevail. One can be loved to death.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Yeah, I aired it. Tell you what, people want to get that way in PM, I put an end to it. Haven't heard a peep since. It's not like someone sharing some personal info then someone 'ratted' on them, it's that someone wants to play derogatory behind the scenes, get quite snide, and I exposed them. I dont play that game. If you can't say it in public, don't say it in PM. I guarantee what is said there in PM wouldn't be said in public. Now, between friends and what we share in PM, I don't even remeber what we've discussed. :love2:
Some who use the word "hate" think of the word as meaning the opposite of love, and that is valid, for the antonym of love is hate.
But, there is more that needs considered.
Instead of using the word - hate, use the word abhor, despise, detest,
It is the placement in an emotional sense that adjusts the word to greater and lesser degree.
It is that sense that the thread has agreed to argue and which really doesn't matter.
The fact is that God does abhor, despise, detest both the sin and the sinner in the full range of emotive attributes.
The fact is that God does have great passion, affection, desire, adoration for righteousness and the righteous in the full range of emotive attributes.
If one holds the impact of God's love or hate a bit stronger than another, it does not make either completely wrong.
When words that express emotive attributes are used in the Scriptures, a lot of the interpretation rests with the readers own history related to the emotion assigned to the word.
The word "hate" may carry great negative impulses that the word abhor, detest, or despise does not, based solely upon the history of that person.
The same with the word "love."
William Cowper could not conceive of the love of God. He was hindered from accepting such because of the deprivation of love as a child. Yet, being the most famous poet of his day, he could write about such love without actually feeling loved.
We, as William Cowper, have very little real comprehension of the vast love and depth of hate God attempts to state in His Scripture.
It does bother all of us, though, when the Scriptures are "watered down" to meet some kind of agreement to a world standard because it doesn't particularly want the rebuke, and some don't want to be offensive.
But, there is more that needs considered.
Instead of using the word - hate, use the word abhor, despise, detest,
It is the placement in an emotional sense that adjusts the word to greater and lesser degree.
It is that sense that the thread has agreed to argue and which really doesn't matter.
The fact is that God does abhor, despise, detest both the sin and the sinner in the full range of emotive attributes.
The fact is that God does have great passion, affection, desire, adoration for righteousness and the righteous in the full range of emotive attributes.
If one holds the impact of God's love or hate a bit stronger than another, it does not make either completely wrong.
When words that express emotive attributes are used in the Scriptures, a lot of the interpretation rests with the readers own history related to the emotion assigned to the word.
The word "hate" may carry great negative impulses that the word abhor, detest, or despise does not, based solely upon the history of that person.
The same with the word "love."
William Cowper could not conceive of the love of God. He was hindered from accepting such because of the deprivation of love as a child. Yet, being the most famous poet of his day, he could write about such love without actually feeling loved.
We, as William Cowper, have very little real comprehension of the vast love and depth of hate God attempts to state in His Scripture.
It does bother all of us, though, when the Scriptures are "watered down" to meet some kind of agreement to a world standard because it doesn't particularly want the rebuke, and some don't want to be offensive.
I think I agree with everything you have said here, except I would re-word the Underlined portion. to read something like:
"We...have very little real comprehension of the vast love and depth of hate that God states that he has in His Scripture."
I don't think God has "attempted" anything. The deficiency lies not in God's statements, but in our understanding and interpretation of them. (I'm sure you realize this, but I just want to help you be precise).
quantumfaith
Active Member
If you are referencing me, then you need to rethink as I never said anything of such nature in PM, I expressed my dismay at the attitude being presented in what I felt were honest and accurate words. I have said nothing less in public.
Oh, like the veiled physical threats that lead me to put you on ignore in order to not receive anymore of your hate filled PM's? You are a complete hypocrite.
Don't you have a flock to attend to somewhere? Shared this site with them yet?
Someone care to address these points from the "hate" crowd? Error'in, you out there?
You illustrate quite well the Calvinist's position on the love of God.
You do love the boy that is not your son- but not in the same way, nor to the same degree that you love your son.
As it pertains to it's uses in the Bible and in daily life in all languages, the word "world" very rarely means every single individual person throughout all of history.
But God does love every person, I believe- but he is not obligated to love every single person equally.
Were he obligated to do so, I wonder who was mighty enough to obligate him?
Agreed to an extent. I agree not in the same way, but disagree to the extent. No greater love than to give one's life for another. I would gladly give my life for any child.
MY point exactly.
Preface: I see that we are now to be know as the "hate" crowd :smilewinkgrin: because when the bible says God hates, we believe Him. I would appreciate Webdogs thoughts on the verses in psalms in my post #62.
1 & 2: If God says he hates the sinner and that He loves the sinner, and that his love is perfect, and that his justice is perfect; then we must leave it to God to determine when and in what manner to perfectly apply his perfect love and perfect justice, expressed in biblical language of "hate" and "wrath."
So no, we cannot love more than God, even If I want to see someone spared from hell, God in his perfect Justice must punish sin, either on the cross through Jesus if the person has received him, or toward that person themselves in hell. Your argument does not have any more force against someone who accepts that God hates sinners than it does against your own view; because even one could ask you, if God loves them, why are they in hell? We would both give the same answer: Because of their own rebellion, sin, and unbelief. That's a pretty harsh sentence if God does't hate them.
3 & 4:
a. The OP (rom.9) is speaking about God, not us. We are obviously not permitted to do everything that the bible describes God as doing.
b. Jesus commands us to love our enemies, which will reflect the perfect love of God toward his enemies. Jesus tells us if we hate we have committed murder in our hearts. Jesus tells us to hate our mother and father. Either Jesus is contradicting himself, or he is using the word 2 different ways to make point about the primacy of relationship with Him above all others. (Everyone on this board believes the second of those 2 options, even if we are not articulate in arguing the fact from the text...Pitting those statements of Jesus against each other really doesn't help either side of this debate.).
c. Consider the verses posted in the 2nd half of my Post #62 that speak of psalmists "hating" the wicked. Were they mistaken in their expressions of hate toward their enemies?
--I'll admit I have no idea how to apply those psalm passages to my life today. Obviously Jesus' exhortations are to love our enemies. I would still agree with you that hating another is a sin...But the verses are there, and may cause us to widen somewhat our view of what God's attitude toward sin and sinners really is.
CONCLUSION: If God does not hate the wicked, then we have a big problem in psalms, even if Rom. 9 had never been written.
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The source was the whole force of your post. Of course I addressed it—that and the spirit in which it was made.
As usual, you don't know your place.
Where is it ever said that vengeance or wrath belongs to us? Where is it ever written that we can can usurp the rights and privileges that God has reserved to Himself? Vengeance and wrath belong to Him. Where we are forbidden to tread, He may leap and skip and jump.
It's just like a petulant child to insist that it isn't fair that one may be given a privilege that he is denied.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Nutshell...
Not sure to whom this is addressed, but I will answer you.
Did you presume to provoke a Calvinist by implying he might love people and things that God hates? :laugh: The Calvinist knows his total depravity.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Go back and read the post again. I said I agree with him and here is why...then I listed three independent arguments as to why I agreed with the assessment of someone who actually knows the original language.
Red Herring. We are talking about God's love as it relates to Paul's expression of love, while writing under inspiration. We are not talking about wrath as some (even from the Calvinistic camp, including Calvin himself) would say that God can have wrath on someone he loves.
You, as usual, fly right past Calvinism into a land of your own making without even knowing it. That is ok, I'm here to catch you.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
So, now you are equating a parents love for their non-elect child with our natural fallen love of sinful/evil things??? Is that really the point you want to make? Really?
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