God does not love all mankind

[Forest]

I agree. No one can, or better, will, come to Him, w/o being drawn. Even being in the FW camp, no one will want to come to Him on their own. We all MUST be drawn first. You can't answer the phone before it rings, you know.

If God calls all mankind then all mankind will be predestinated, called, justified, and glorified, and I don't believe that the scriptures will bear out that thought, Rom 8:29-30.

 

[Forest]

He loves those who first love Him?

We love him because He first loved us, 1 John 4:9.

 

[Forest]

The word "world" almost always means the sinful system of this world.

John 3:16 could also read: for God so loved "sinners" that He gave His one and only Son.

God so loved the world of believers (his elect).

 

[Forest]

This isn't true at all. Salvation is about meeting the requirements laid out in scripture.
Paul told the Jailer;
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Here you are denying what the scripture says and reviling all those who follow these simple instructions. Who are you to tell us this isn't true. Are you placing yourself in the Lords shoes.

Your false charge of the (big I) is going to bite you one day.
MB

Paul was not telling the jailer that he would be eternally saved, but that he would receive a deliverance then and there (salvation) by being obedient to God.

 

[Forest]

Wrong, already addressed. Context is the authority, not Thayer. I challenge you to show John's useage of "whole world" being anything other than all sinful mankind.

Then challenge me with scriptures. All scriptures must harmonise before you understand the truth.

 

[Forest]

Extremely poor paraphrase. The natural man cannot understand (discern) the deeper things of God. Night and day difference in meaning and scope.

The scripture does not say that the natural man can understand spiritual things that are not deep things, the scripture does say that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. The natural man is a man without the Spirit of God. Ps 10:4, The wicked (natural man) through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God; God is not in all his thoughts.

 

[convicted1]

If God calls all mankind then all mankind will be predestinated, called, justified, and glorified, and I don't believe that the scriptures will bear out that thought, Rom 8:29-30.

Proverbs 1:24-31

24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

Matt. 22:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Matt. 22:9-14

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Many more were called than there were chosen. Even the one w/o the wedding garment was bidden to come. Just because He calls, doesn't guarantee they will come. We must humble ourselves under His mighty hand. God resisteth the proud, but giveth Grace to the humble.

The king even went so far as to call him friend. And yet, he was bound hand and foot, and cast out into outer darkness.

 

[psalms109:31]

It isn't bad or evil that our carnal mind can't wrap around the love of God for the world with the way it is that He sent His Son. The problem is that when we let our carnal mind rule over the word of God. That is the whole point about our carnal mind not understanding the deeper things of God is that we shouldn't rely on it, but on the word of God which is Spirit and life.

 

[12strings]

We are all born into this world as natural beings without any righteousness until God quickens his elect to a spiritual life. The natural man will not, and indeed, cannot seek after things that are of a spiritual nature, 1 Cor 2:14.

This is true. I did not say anything to the contrary, so I'm not sure what you are arguing against here.

2 Pet 3:9, To keep it in context, lets go bace to 2 Pet 1:1 and see who Peter is talking to, and it is to them that have obtained like precious faith. Verse 3:9 are people who are born of the Spirit and have faith. Peter is warning them that when they commit a sin and don't repent of it, they will perish (lose their fellowship with God), not lose their eternal salvation. Peter is even including himself in this warning by using the word "us-ward". The inspired scriptures are not written to those that are not his children, but are written to his children to instruct them as how to live their lives while they sojourn here in this world. God says those that have not the Spirit are none of his, Rom 8:9.

1. It is true that 2 Peter, and all of the epistles, were written to and addressed to churches of god's people, but it is also clear that there are parts of the letters that were clearly intended to warn those who were not true believers of the danger of failing to heed the Gospel. These warning are part of the means that God uses to bring the elect to himself.

2. There is no good reason to re-write "perish" (apolesthai) as "lose their fellowship with God." Perish certainly does not mean that in John 3:16. If one has no fellowship with God, the whole of scripture indicates he has no salvation (see 1 John).

3. The scriptures are given to guide the lives of God's children here on earth, but also to make us "wise unto salvation." (ie, to show us the way of salvation).

4. "us-ward." Sorry, I don't see that word. what language is that? Could you elaborate?

 

[webdog]

Then challenge me with scriptures. All scriptures must harmonise before you understand the truth.

Did already. Every usage of whole world used by John in his letters.

 

[webdog]

The scripture does not say that the natural man can understand spiritual things that are not deep things, the scripture does say that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. The natural man is a man without the Spirit of God. Ps 10:4, The wicked (natural man) through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God; God is not in all his thoughts.

Argument from silence. Paul was addressing believers in Corinth who were making spiritual decisions using "natural" means. Context. Just let the Scripture say what it says...the natural man cannot discern the deep things of God. To use that as a proof text he cannot undersatand anything is reading into the text (eisegesis)

 

[Iconoclast]

Argument from silence. Paul was addressing believers in Corinth who were making spiritual decisions using "natural" means. Context. Just let the Scripture say what it says...the natural man cannot discern the deep things of God. To use that as a proof text he cannot undersatand anything is reading into the text (eisegesis)

webdog

it does not say that
[QUOTE

9but, according as it hath been written, `What eye did not see, and ear did not hear, and upon the heart of man came not up, what God did prepare for those loving Him --'

10but to us did God reveal [them] through His Spirit, for the Spirit all things doth search, even the depths of God, 11for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that [is] in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God.

12And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that [is] of God, that we may know the things conferred by God on us,

13which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing,

14and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know [them], because spiritually they are discerned;
15and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one discerned;

16for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we -- we have the mind of Christ.

it is a CONTRAST between natural unsaved men,devoid of the Spirit,and those who are indwelt by the Spirit.

 

[psalms109:31]

Luke 16:
10"Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much.

Proverbs 3:
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths]
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.

 

[Forest]

Argument from silence. Paul was addressing believers in Corinth who were making spiritual decisions using "natural" means. Context. Just let the Scripture say what it says...the natural man cannot discern the deep things of God. To use that as a proof text he cannot undersatand anything is reading into the text (eisegesis)

Webdog, WE all , both the elect and the non-elect, are born into this world as natural beings without any righteousness, Eph 2:2-3, until God quickens his elect to a spiritual life by putting His Spirit within them. Before his quickening we did not have the Holy Spirit and could not descern spiritual things. The same is true of anyone that has not been born again and is but a natural being. The natural man does not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within him and therefore connot descern anything, deep or shallow, that is of a spiritual nature. To make 1 Cor 2:14 say anything else is abusing the scripture. All scriptures must harmonise before you can understand the truth.

 

[Forest]

Luke 16:
10"Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much.

Proverbs 3:
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths]
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.

There is a salvation in coming unto a knowledge of the truth but it is not eternal salvation. It is a salvation (deliverance) that we receive here in this world as soon as we understand. Most of the salvation scriptures are deliverances we receive here in this world. The only time that it is talking about eternal salvation is when we are delivered from this present evil world.

 

[psalms109:31]

There is a salvation in coming unto a knowledge of the truth but it is not eternal salvation. It is a salvation (deliverance) that we receive here in this world as soon as we understand. Most of the salvation scriptures are deliverances we receive here in this world. The only time that it is talking about eternal salvation is when we are delivered from this present evil world.

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

It is a sad day when men can not even be trusted with a little truth that they turn all the rest of the word of God into a lie.

Romans 1:25
They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

 

[Forest]

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

It is a sad day when men can not even be trusted with a little truth that they turn all the rest of the word of God into a lie.

Romans 1:25
They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

If God wanted all men to be saved eternlly, he has the power to do just that because God accomplishes all his will. Dan 4:35, And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? Ps 50:2, Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver?

 

[psalms109:31]

We can trust in God and His word that those who trust in His Son will be saved, we have no reason to doubt God will do what He said He will do.

His want is to send us out to reach to tell us His desire not to tell us they will be saved only those in Jesus will be saved according to His word.

2 Corinthians 5:
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[Or Christ, that person is a new creation.] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

"Secondly, IN CHRIST JESUS THERE IS LIFE,
for he says: "Ye will not come to me that ye might have life." There is no life in God the Father for a sinner; there is no life in God the Spirit for a sinner apart from Jesus. The life of a sinner is in Christ. If you take the Father apart from the Son, though he loves his elect, and decrees that they shall live, yet life is only in his Son. If you take God the Spirit apart from Jesus Christ, though it is the Spirit that gives us spiritual life, yet it is life in Christ, life in the Son. We dare not, and cannot apply in the first place, either to God the Father, or to God the Holy Ghost for spiritual life. The first thing we are led to do when God brings us out of Egypt is to eat the Passover—the very first thing. The first means whereby we get life is by feeding upon the flesh and blood of the Son of God; living in him, trusting on him, believing in his grace and power. Our second thought was—there is life in Christ."

C.H.Spurgeon

 

[Forest]

We can trust in God and His word that those who trust in His Son will be saved, we have no reason to doubt God will do what He said He will do.

His want is to send us out to reach to tell us His desire not to tell us they will be saved only those in Jesus will be saved according to His word.

2 Corinthians 5:
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[Or Christ, that person is a new creation.] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

"Secondly, IN CHRIST JESUS THERE IS LIFE,
for he says: "Ye will not come to me that ye might have life." There is no life in God the Father for a sinner; there is no life in God the Spirit for a sinner apart from Jesus. The life of a sinner is in Christ. If you take the Father apart from the Son, though he loves his elect, and decrees that they shall live, yet life is only in his Son. If you take God the Spirit apart from Jesus Christ, though it is the Spirit that gives us spiritual life, yet it is life in Christ, life in the Son. We dare not, and cannot apply in the first place, either to God the Father, or to God the Holy Ghost for spiritual life. The first thing we are led to do when God brings us out of Egypt is to eat the Passover—the very first thing. The first means whereby we get life is by feeding upon the flesh and blood of the Son of God; living in him, trusting on him, believing in his grace and power. Our second thought was—there is life in Christ."

C.H.Spurgeon

You did not address the scriptures that I gave you about God accomplishing all his will.

 

[psalms109:31]

His will is that those who trust in His Son will be saved and there is no reason to doubt that God will accomplish His will.