God does not offer grace to some people?

[Rhetorician]

Rev Mitchell Reponse #2

So it is your position that the only reasonable understanding of that passage is that no grace was ever offered to some? Is it not possible that you have taken the word "hated" to an extreme? Could Paul have not meant that God simply preferred Jacob over Esau?

Dear Brother,

When one makes a commitment to Inerrancy, then you have some "hard sayings" with which to deal? Do you not? Now, I know you have enough theological acumen to know that there are different levels and kinds of grace in the Scripture?

It is not me who has a problem with the clear words of the Apostle Paul.

"That is all!":thumbsup:

 

[Revmitchell]

Dear Brother,

When one makes a commitment to Inerrancy, then you have some "hard sayings" with which to deal? Do you not? Now, I know you have enough theological acumen to know that there are different levels and kinds of grace in the Scripture?

It is not me who has a problem with the clear words of the Apostle Paul.

"That is all!":thumbsup:

These are the type of indirect and vague responses that lead to claims of arrogance among reformed folks. I do not mean to attack but it is not Paul's words that I am asking clarification from. It is the reformed view. Now if you are going to respond only with the assumption that it should just be understood you are right then there is no room for conversation or for anyone else to clearly understand your position. And it is quite arrogant.

 

[pinoybaptist]

With all due respects to one and all, I find discussions like these to be moot and academic.
First off, the Bible clearly indicates the following:

1. The Lamb's book of Life was written before the foundation of the world and populated with His people's names before the foundation of the world, therefore the incarnation of the God of the Universe and the physical blood shed as a result of that incarnation was meant for those whose names are written in the book of Life;

2. God's grace, in relation to eternal salvation and redemption is coupled with mercy, and mercy is His to dispense or to withold, and if He witholds and dispenses mercy according to His good pleasure, then grace is also subject to His good pleasure to bestow;

3. Finally, the CROSS IS PAST, and if the purpose of the cross is the redemption of those who are His, then that purpose is fulfilled already and no one can add or take away from the results of the cross. The BLOOD IS ALREADY SHED, it has covered the past, present, and future sins of those for whom it was intended.

These could only mean one thing: ALL FOR WHOM REDEMPTION IS MEANT ARE INDEED REDEEMED, and the only way one can argue against this is to insist that God MUST be merciful, NEEDS to be gracious, to ALL men.

(please....I am not yelling...just using bold to emphasize what I am trying to say).

I am in full agreement with Luke 2427's statement in post #14.

 

[Revmitchell]

I am afraid all this will do is invite everyone to bring their proof texts to the table and no one is going to allow for the other's proof text to say anything that they don't agree with.

Very poor argument

I've already noticed that some texts were offered that seemed to very clearly indicate that God loves some over others and those texts were rejected. I am also aware that there are texts that seem to indicate that God does not wish for any to perish and that he loves the whole world and is no respecter of persons. So...

I am looking to understand how the reformed view determines the context. Should be easier than it has been to this point.

Perhaps a better angle would be:
Why does God have to offer grace to everyone?

For what purpose is he obligated to love everybody?

Is it wrong for God to save some and let others perish?

Who can judge God if he does things that way?

What makes man so special that God would be evil to not provide for his well being?

And that would be off topic.

 

[Revmitchell]

With all due respects to one and all, I find discussions like these to be moot and academic.
First off, the Bible clearly indicates the following:

1. The Lamb's book of Life was written before the foundation of the world and populated with His people's names before the foundation of the world, therefore the incarnation of the God of the Universe and the physical blood shed as a result of that incarnation was meant for those whose names are written in the book of Life;

2. God's grace, in relation to eternal salvation and redemption is coupled with mercy, and mercy is His to dispense or to withold, and if He witholds and dispenses mercy according to His good pleasure, then grace is also subject to His good pleasure to bestow;

3. Finally, the CROSS IS PAST, and if the purpose of the cross is the redemption of those who are His, then that purpose is fulfilled already and no one can add or take away from the results of the cross. The BLOOD IS ALREADY SHED, it has covered the past, present, and future sins of those for whom it was intended.

These could only mean one thing: ALL FOR WHOM REDEMPTION IS MEANT ARE INDEED REDEEMED, and the only way one can argue against this is to insist that God MUST be merciful, NEEDS to be gracious, to ALL men.

(please....I am not yelling...just using bold to emphasize what I am trying to say).

I am in full agreement with Luke 2427's statement in post #14.

And more evidence proving post number 23. Look I am just trying to get an understanding of how you come to the conclusion that God does not offer grace at all to some. As of yet no one has done this. Simply pointing to Romans 9:15 does not begin to answer that. It appears that such an idea is imposed on that passage based on a predetermined view of election. That is my honest view not just an argument to win debate.

Having said that I want to see the thought process that brings one to your view. That is it. I am not even looking for a debate here. Broad overviews do not help the understanding here. And what is most often said from reformed folks is that "Well you do not understand Calvinism" when you feel your view is being misrepresented.

I am trying to get past that but reformed folks always seem to want to remain at a distance. Its like trying to grab a wet fish with Vaseline covered hands.

 

[Tom Bryant]

...So...

Perhaps a better angle would be:
Why does God have to offer grace to everyone?

For what purpose is he obligated to love everybody?

Is it wrong for God to save some and let others perish?

Who can judge God if he does things that way?

What makes man so special that God would be evil to not provide for his well being?

1. God doesn't have to offer grace to everyone.
2. God is not obligated to love everyone.
3. God can not do wrong, so obviously the answer is no.
4. No one can judge the Judge of all the universe.
5. God cannot be evil.

I would imagine that those would be your answers also. I am answering them as a non-Calvinist. So I am not sure that the answers clearly define any particular view about salvation.

 

[Rippon]

First off, the Bible clearly indicates the following:

1. The Lamb's book of Life was written before the foundation of the world and populated with His people's names before the foundation of the world, therefore the incarnation of the God of the Universe and the physical blood shed as a result of that incarnation was meant for those whose names are written in the book of Life;

2. God's grace, in relation to eternal salvation and redemption is coupled with mercy, and mercy is His to dispense or to withold, and if He witholds and dispenses mercy according to His good pleasure, then grace is also subject to His good pleasure to bestow;

3. Finally, the CROSS IS PAST, and if the purpose of the cross is the redemption of those who are His, then that purpose is fulfilled already and no one can add or take away from the results of the cross. The BLOOD IS ALREADY SHED, it has covered the past, present, and future sins of those for whom it was intended.

I believe I agree with all of the above.

These could only mean one thing: ALL FOR WHOM REDEMPTION IS MEANT ARE INDEED REDEEMED, and the only way one can argue against this is to insist that God MUST be merciful, NEEDS to be gracious, to ALL men.

I agree with aspects of the above except that all for whom redemption is intended are not at this present point redeemed. The elect are saved in time -- they are not born redeemed.

 

[HankD]

Surely there must be a meeting ground between calvinists and arminians.

In the "selection" of the "elect" there seems to be two essentials:

Ephesians 1

9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.​

There are two "according to" statements concerning the "mystery of His will" which are centered upon 1) His good pleasure and 2) the counsel of His own will.​

Presumably that pleasure and counsel involved the three persons of the Trinity.​

We have not been made privy as to what pleased God to save us (any of us) apart for his unconditional love for mankind (John 3:16).​

We have not been made privy as to the criteria of selection of the elect apart from it being after the counsel of His own will.

Obviously it had/has nothing to do with our ability being as we were/are helpless, hopeless and powerless in His sight.​

Personally, I think we are going to have to wait until we have glorified bodies and minds to understand this "mystery of His will".​

Until then why have these endless, fruitless and divisive debates?​

Just preach/teach Christ crucified, died, buried and resurrected for the forgiveness of sin and the promise of eternal life to those who believe the gospel.​

HankD​

 

[pinoybaptist]

I believe I agree with all of the above.



I agree with aspects of the above except that all for whom redemption is intended are not at this present point redeemed. The elect are saved in time -- they are not born redeemed.

If the elect are saved (eternally) in time, then there must of necessity be a gap in the "all" in Revelation 7:9 because surely there can be no salvation in time for those who were born before the cross since obviously the implication of your statement, dear brother, is that there was no gospel to preach and to be obeyed or believed in.

No. ALL for whom redemption and eternal salvation was authored and done are now present beneficiaries of this redemption and salvation. All the elect are born redeemed. They are NOT born regenerate, for regeneration is by the Spirit, and He does this act on His children independent of man, the gospel, preaching or any means.

In another sense, salvation is in time, but this is not the eternal salvation that Christ authored for His people, fulfilled here in time at the cross. This is gospel salvation, a result of the preaching and teaching of the gospel by preachers limited in their ability to be everywhere at all time and at any time, therefore from this we conclude that not all who are God's elect and redeemed will hear and obey the gospel here in time.

 

[Shortandy]

Great! But where is the context for that? Compassion in regards to what?

The context is in the passages that come before verse 12.

Verse 2....Why else would Paul be in great sorrow and grief?

Verse 3..... Would Paul be expressing this if the context were something other than salvation?

Verse 8....Children of what promise?

 

[Revmitchell]

Verse 8....Children of what promise?

Good question

 

[Iconoclast]

11And he answering said to them that -- `To you it hath been given to know the secrets of the reign of the heavens, and to these it hath not been given,

12for whoever hath, it shall be given to him, and he shall have overabundance, and whoever hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken from him.

44no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;

45it is having been written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God; every one therefore who heard from the Father, and learned, cometh to me;

 

[Robert Snow]

The same word translated "hate" in Rom. 9:13,

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

is the same work translated "hate in Luke 14:26,

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

I don't think God commands us to hate our families any more than I think God hated Esau.

I believe God is showing that it is through Jacob that Christ would descend.

 

[AresMan]

Where in scripture does it clearly delineate that God does not offer grace to some people?


added note:


I did not realize that my question would not be clear. The context of grace in my question is in regard to salvation not simply choosing whom the Messiah would come through.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.