God doesn´t control all things?

[4His_glory]

This was said in the Warren prayer transcript thread in response to the idea that God allowed sin to enter into the world:

God doesn't control every action of all things. Although He is not limited to the laws of science, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Grace is God's reaction to an action taken by the devil for fallen man, not for God's own actions.

That thread has been derailed enough so I thought I would start a new one.

There is so much danger in this line of thinking that I do not know were to start.

First of all, a God who does not ordain all things, control all things, and have a purpose for all things is not an omnipotent God. Every petal that drops from a lone flower in the most remote wilderness does so because of God. Every disaster that happens, from tidal waves to volcanos has a purpose in God´s plan for the universe.

Every ruler in power including our newly installed President Obama, is put in that place of authority by the hand of God. I am thankful that God is absolutely in control of everything that happens in my life and in the world.

Secondly, grace was not a reaction of God´s against sin. Grace existed before sin did since its part of the very nature of God- God is gracious. The perfect plan of salvation goes back as far as the very mind of God which goes back to eternity past itself.

You can´t get your theology from laws of physics.

 

[matt wade]

There's a difference in "control all things" and "being in control". Yes, God is in control! He has the ability (and the right!) to control all things. But, he allows free will. Since he allows free will, he does not actively control all things. He is in control because he allows the things to happen, but that is not the same as actually controlling the action.

In short, God can control all things, but sometimes allows things to play out for themselves. He knows ahead of time what we are going to do and can bring glory to Himself through anything.

 

[saturneptune]

I have always wondered what God thinks when one of his created beings becomes, through His grace, a very accomplished scientist, and proceeds to explain to the world that there is no Creation to the universe, or that God has no part in the running of it.

 

[Marcia]

Secondly, grace was not a reaction of God´s against sin. Grace existed before sin did since its part of the very nature of God- God is gracious. The perfect plan of salvation goes back as far as the very mind of God which goes back to eternity past itself.

I totally agree with you. Grace was not a "reaction" to what Satan did. That makes it sound like Satan was in charge and God was reacting to him. God does not react; this would mean God is in time and reacts to events as they happen.

 

[4His_glory]

There's a difference in "control all things" and "being in control". Yes, God is in control! He has the ability (and the right!) to control all things. But, he allows free will. Since he allows free will, he does not actively control all things. He is in control because he allows the things to happen, but that is not the same as actually controlling the action.

In short, God can control all things, but sometimes allows things to play out for themselves. He knows ahead of time what we are going to do and can bring glory to Himself through anything.

Again that is dangerous thinking. I believe in the free agency of man as well. Yet God can use mans will to accomplish His purpose that He has ordained and He does so without negating the will of man.

You said: "God can control all things, but sometimes allows things to play out for themselves." This to me sound similar (note the word similar I am not accusing you) to the deism that was prevalent in the 1700´s. That God created man and then leaves him to do his own thing without out intervention.

It seems clear to me from the Scriptures that God not only knows ahead of time all things, but He has planned all things as well.

For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Rm. 11:36

BTW folks, lets do our best to stay out of Calvinism/Arminianism debates. To me this subject goes beyond soteriology (though it would obviously encompass that as well).

 

[4His_glory]

I totally agree with you. Grace was not a "reaction" to what Satan did. That makes it sound like Satan was in charge and God was reacting to him. God does not react; this would mean God is in time and reacts to events as they happen.

That is how I felt as well Marcia. I shudder to think of such scenario. I am thankful that Satan was an already defeated foe from the beginning.

 

[4His_glory]

I have always wondered what God thinks when one of his created beings becomes, through His grace, a very accomplished scientist, and proceeds to explain to the world that there is no Creation to the universe, or that God has no part in the running of it.

I for one, would hate to be that scientist when he stands before his Creator.

 

[matt wade]

You said: "God can control all things, but sometimes allows things to play out for themselves." This to me sound similar (note the word similar I am not accusing you) to the deism that was prevalent in the 1700´s. That God created man and then leaves him to do his own thing without out intervention.

I certainly didn't mean for it to come across that way. God intervenes all the time. Without his intervention I'd be heading straight for hell! I just don't believe he controls people to a point that we are all walking robots doing exactly as he bids. If that were the case, there never would have been a need for Jesus to die since we would have obeyed the law perfectly.

 

[Brandon C. Jones]

I recommend a discussion in the most recent Trinity Journal between Tom McCall and John Piper on God's sovereignty.

I would also recommend one work that McCall cites that the broader Reformed tradition in the past never upheld divine omnicausality or determinism of all actions, but they of course upheld election unto salvation. Richard Muller has a helpful article on this in one of Schreiner and Ware's old volumes "The Grace of God, the Bondage of the Will."

 

[just-want-peace]

To say that God "controls" everything, is nothing more than to ascribe some measure of truth to Flip Wilson's famous line, "The Debbel made me do it!"

Only difference is he would then say "God made me do it."

 

[TCGreek]

I have given up on trying to figure God out like a science project.

Some of us on this board need to do the same.

 

[Marcia]

I have given up on trying to figure God out like a science project.

Some of us on this board need to do the same.

This sounds patronizing.

I don't think anyone is tyring to figure God out "like a science project." It can be productive to discuss God's nature and attributes using the Bible as the source.

 

[TCGreek]

This sounds patronizing.

I don't think anyone is tyring to figure God out "like a science project." It can be productive to discuss God's nature and attributes using the Bible as the source.

The outworking of God's nature and attributes in the redemption drama continues to defy our lofty human reasoning.

 

[Marcia]

The outworking of God's nature and attributes in the redemption drama continues to defy our lofty human reasoning.

Well, I would say that some of this is beyond our human comprehension, but not that it defies our human reasoning. God is a God of reason and reason is based on His character.

 

[TCGreek]

Well, I would say that some of this is beyond our human comprehension, but not that it defies our human reasoning. God is a God of reason and reason is based on His character.

At least for me, God continues to defy human reasoning.

 

[Gold Dragon]

At least for me, God continues to defy human reasoning.

As He did for Job when God spent chapters 38-41 of the book of Job talking about how his nature and actions are beyond human reasoning and knowledge. I think you are in pretty good company. :thumbs:

 

[donnA]

Quote in the op is someone saying God is not sovereign, denying His power, compromising who God is.
We don't have full understaning of God and how He works, so we make stuff up, like He isn't in control anyway.
Which is a lack of faith.

 

[HankD]

Sometimes we need to qualify what we mean when we say "God is in control".

Was God in control of the Nazi holocaust?
The genocide of Stalin, Po Pot and Saddam Hussein?
The Spanish and Roman Inquisitions?
The Massacre of the Waldenses?
The St Bartholomew Day Massacre?

Those acts were best described by the following verse:

NIB 1 John 5:19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.​

God is sovereign and in ULTIMATE control.​

Revelation 16-22 Clearly details that final and ultimate defeat of the evil one.​

HankD​

 

[thegospelgeek]

God is all powerful and is complete control. However, sometimes God gives us things because of our sinfulm desires. God din't want Israel to have a king but they wanted one. So he gave then Saul. People do not want the light of God, so he gave them the darkness of sin. Was God in control when t Israel split into Judah and Israel? Absolutely. Was God in controll when the Jews were taken into captivity? Yes. Was God in control when Hitler murdered millions? Absolutely. How about when Stalin murdered even more than Hitler? Yep! You can go on and on. God allows us to sin because that is what we want. James wrote that lust is conceived in our own mind and becomes sin. Only when we submit to God does he have complete controll of us, not because he can't but because chooses.

Someone asked how God felt when one who was created in his image, nutured by him, and loved by him, denies his existance? I heard someone say that is why he gives us teenagers, so we would know how it feels

 

[Dr. Bob]

YOU meant it for evil (the free will action of sinful man)
GOD meant it for good (God is sovereign and in control of all things)
(Joseph to his family, Genesis)

What was the WORST most sinful/wicked event in history?
Man crucified Jesus, the Son of God
Man will be held culpable for such wickedness BUT

Acts 4:27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done"