God doesn't love the lost? Explain Mark 10:21

Hello Songbird.

I don't know. I read the NIV usually but if I'm feeling posh I might delve into the KJV. I'm sure they say the same as yours though.

And what do you understand 'love' means? And what do you understand by the word 'world'?

God so LOVED the WORLD. Does not sound all inclusive to me as the world 'world' in my world means the human race excluding the Jew! But then the word can mean a number of things.

I'm sure you are not a universalist, are you? I'd like to meet one but they are rarer than royal flush.
If that is the case, that you are not, then your God's love has failed in many places. "Just as it is written: Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Rom 9:13.
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

Does it still sound all inclusive?

ISA 63:3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; from the nations no one was with me. I trampled them in my anger and trod them down in my wrath; their blood spattered my garments, and I stained all my clothing. 4 For the day of vengeance was in my heart, and the year of my redemption has come.

Revelation 19:15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

Does it still sound all inclusive? Where is there any sign of love in those passages please?

1CO 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails...

john.

 

So God is a liar? God said "My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure" (Isa 46:10). You want us to believe that God's purpose will not be established and he won't accomplish his good pleasure.

As has happened so many times before, Bob's theology is caught in a contradiction with God's revelation.

 

I happen to believe, no I KNOW, that God sent His son to die for all mankind. But b/c of free will it's everyone's responsibility to CHOOSE to follow Christ or not. If one chooses not to follow Christ, their penalty is eternity in Hell--separated from God.

If I believed that God chose only a few to be saved then I would believe in a very hateful/cruel God. I think He is grieved that not everyone that He created will choose to follow Christ--who is the ONLY way to the Father. I will never back down on my belief of that truth!

Why do we continue to try and figure God out?

I believe the Lord prompts us to come as little children--not questioning everything but having faith. We get so caught up in trying figure Him and His word out that we don't see those around us who are going to Hell, b/c we spend so much time debating things that really aren't that important (i.e the length of a woman's hair or dress)--not to say the love of God and His way of salvation are trivial--to me those are two of the most important things to know! God loved me enough (and everyone in the whole world--not just a chosen few) to send His Son in my place. Could it be that we bicker and argue so much among ourselves about silly things that people who would potentially come to Lord see that and want no part of being a Christian?

So, if you disagree me--I really don't care. I am settled in my faith! And I will do my best to win others to the Lord.

His ways and thoughts are so much higher than ours!

Take care.

 

REV 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

that's what Calvinists believe.

john.

 

Your attitude must impress alot of people into the Kingdom of God Songbird.

john.

 

Johnp, I'm sorry if that came across as harsh. I didn't mean unbelievers. I meant Christians who want to argue that God chooses some to be saved and others not. I read that it's not His will that any perish.

I see a lost and dying world. I just feel a lot of time is wasted arguing--not that debate or closer study of God's Word is wasting time at all. Please hear me. My heart wants to see people drawn to the Lord first of all because He loved them so much to send what was the most precious to Him to die for their sins and they to realize that sin will keep them away from Him for all eternity.

 

Hello Songbird.

To contend for the faith is a command of God. JUDE 1:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

I take it you have heard the arguments before? Jacob I loved Esau I hated is on the menu. Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
That is scripture you cannot ignore, your understanding of 2 Peter 3:9 is wrong.

Yea and now we see famine stalking Niger what? Why does God not feed them? Why the late rains? Have your news channels started to show the starving babies yet? ...The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised." Job 1:21.

Then you must submit to the Lord's will because He said: All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:37.

He did not die for all. 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "
It is not sin that keeps a man from God but it is God that said: "...I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Romans 9:15-16.

john.

 

Agree to disagree

 

john.

 

How can their sin keep them away from God for all eternity, if Christ already paid for their sin?

 

How can their sin keep them away from God for all eternity, if Christ already paid for their sin?

By rejecting the pardon from sin offered to them through the Son.

In my minds eye, I imagine Christ standing in heaven on Judgment day going, "Well, yes, Father, I did die for Saddam too, but Saddam did not want my pardon. I called and called, but he refused to answer, so I did not write his name in the book of life."

 

Hello TexasSky.

That is double jeopardy. Two adjudications for one offense. Jesus paid for Saddam's crime and Saddam pays for Saddam's crime.

john.

 

What does "die for" mean?

 

Calvinist would have us to believe that before Esau was ever born, that God hated him and predestined him to hell. However this is not what the scripture teaches. (1) When God spoke of Jacob and Esau in this passage, he was speaking of them in their national capacities, not individually. We know this because it is stated that the elder shall serve the younger. Esau never served Jacob , but his descendents, the Edomites did. See 1 sam 14:47, 2 sam 8:14, 1 kings 11:15-16 , 1kings 22:47 and 2 kings 14:7.
(2) Hatred in this verse is not absolute but relative to a higher choice. See luke 14:26 . Are we to hate our mother and father? Of course not, its only that we are to love Jesus more. See john 12:25 . Do we hate our life here? Or is it that we should prefer life in heaven with Jesus? So we see that hate is not always used in a absolute sense but is also used in a realitive sense to a higher choice.
(3) Esau was hated (in this sense rejected ,rather) as the line thru whom Jesus would come.

4)When God said Esau have I hated, Paul was quoting from Malachi 1:2-4. Again, this was speaking of them in their national capacities. It is not true, as Calvinism would have us believe, that God hated Esau before he was born. (5) Esau himself committed apostasy, and many of his descendants did also, but it cannot be said that they are part of a world that God did not love but rather part of a world that rejected God and his salvation whom God as righteous judge had to punish.

 

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all romans 11:32

Calvinsit are fond of saying that God is not obligated to save anyone. Where does the bible state that God saves or does not save based on obligation?

Love is only one of Gods many attributes. He is also holy and righteous and he will judge and punish those who reject him. He does not have any pleasure in the death of the wicked however. His will is that none perish but many will reject him and they must be judged.

 

Hello philg.

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." Means nothing then? Must be? God must? He does as He pleases surely.

If you don't believe "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." then what?

If you don't believe the scripture there is nothing else.
RO 9:10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
You deny the scripture as is common with Arminians.

Yea sure hate means love of course silly of me to think it means hate.

No of course not. God really loved Esau very very much as the scripture says, "Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I loved as well."

john.

 

That's not what 'songbird' said. Besides, we are commanded to believe so how is lack of faith not a sin?

 

From what I understand and believe--it's rejection of Jesus Christ that sends people to hell for eternity.

It isn't a lack of faith. A person can believe all their life that Jesus is the Son of God--but unless they confess their sins and trust Him as Lord and Savior they won't spend eternity in Heaven-- and they won't live the abundant life that Jesus said He came to give.

 

Hello Songbird.

It would be helpful if you could show unambiguously that everyman ever conceived hears the message. Although you have passages that say that He will draw all men this is in fact is handled erroneously on the part of those that do not believe "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.".
It is unambiguously stated that not all men conceived hear. First there are all the babies that die without hearing. You might say they do not reject Christ but conversely they do not accept Him after hearing the message either. But then the wages of sin is death and babies die. They die because they are sinners.
And then there is scripture: Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law... This proves that a man can be judged for sins when he has not had the message in a concrete form. He has not heard of the law. It also proves that not all hear so cannot reject what they do not hear.
The law was given to Israel alone: PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.
Romans 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?... (I'll tell you what is a sin. Telling people that Jesus died for them because that is not the message.)

Where do you read that salvation depends on confession? We are called to believe on the One He sent, John 6:29, not confess our sins. Unless a man is born again he is hostile to God and does not submit to God's law, nor can he do so. Rom 8:7 (with liberties )
A man must be born again, regenerated, before he is able to comprehend the truth.
1 Cor 2:10 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

It wasn't a sin for Eli's household to not believe in Christ because Christ did not die for them. 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "

john.