God Got The Memo

[Rippon]

We're Getting Off-Topic

Please let's focus on the OP . I know there have been several hundred posts on this thread already , but shouldn't be a grab bag of assorted tpoics .

Is it a case that God merely God the memo ? Is it true that God "may be involved in our salvation " ?Is it true that God only knows ( and does not determine ) the salvation of an individual ? Is "our choice" the pivotal action which triggers someone becoming regenerate ? Is it true that God stands waiting for our choice ? Is it true that He has nothing to do with "My decision , and mine alone. " ? Is it really true that foreknowledge only means that God has advance knowledge of what His creatures will do , and then He responds accordingly making man the Master of God ?

 

[DHK]

Ephesians 2: 8-9...

"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith, and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God."

Let me explain the grammar of that verse so you can understand it more easily.

For salvation is by grace. Salvation is through faith, and salvation is not of yourself. Salvation is the gift of God.
--The subject does not change throughout the verse, and the subject is salvation.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--The gift of God is eternal life (salvation), not faith. The Bible doesn't contradict itself.

 

[DHK]

Please let's focus on the OP . I know there have been several hundred posts on this thread already , but shouldn't be a grab bag of assorted tpoics .

Is it a case that God merely God the memo ? Is it true that God "may be involved in our salvation " ?Is it true that God only knows ( and does not determine ) the salvation of an individual ? Is "our choice" the pivotal action which triggers someone becoming regenerate ? Is it true that God stands waiting for our choice ? Is it true that He has nothing to do with "My decision , and mine alone. " ? Is it really true that foreknowledge only means that God has advance knowledge of what His creatures will do , and then He responds accordingly making man the Master of God ?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:11-13 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

His own people, the Jews made their own choice to reject him.'
Others made their choice to receive him. To those who made that wise choice, to them God gave the authority bo become the children of God--the reason? Because they believed; they made a choice to believe on the name of Christ, and for that reason alone.

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture From The NLTse

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:11-13 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

His own people, the Jews made their own choice to reject him.'
Others made their choice to receive him. To those who made that wise choice, to them God gave the authority bo become the children of God--the reason? Because they believed; they made a choice to believe on the name of Christ, and for that reason alone.

"To those who made that wise choice ." Is it due to someone's superior wisdom , strength , insight , keen perception , or independent mindset that they are born again ?! Or is it due to the fact that these "are reborn -- not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan , but a birth that comes from God" ? ( John 1:13 ) Isn't it because "He chose to give us birth" ? ( James 1:18 ) Isn't it true that "it is God who decides to show mercy . We can neither choose it nor work for it ." ( Romans 9:16 )

 

[Isaiah40:28]

That is not what my Bible says.
But then I am a Baptist, and the Bible is my only rule of faith and order. I do believe in such a thing called sola scriptura, not sola Westminster Confession of Faith.

The reason I posted the WCF to you was to show that what you asserted Calvinists believe was in fact incorrect. I used a Calvinistic document to show you that Calvinists do not believe what you stated they did.

Grand-standing about you being a Baptist and only using the Bible is useless rhetoric.
Do you want to retract your statements about what Calvinism teaches of man's will and the choices derived from it since I have clearly shown your statement to be wrong?

 

[skypair]

You are turning the very words of our Lord around to fit what you to believe. Jesus told some "you do not believe because you are not of My sheep." The "effect" (do not believe) is the result of the "cause" (you are not of My sheep).

It might appear that way because you have ignored a previous event -- in order to BECOME His sheep in the first place, they had to enter via the "Door." Now they hear Him because they believe Him. And the others do not because they are NOT of His sheep because they didn't enter the "Door." Once in the "Door," His sheep hear His voice and follow wherever He leads. But this it AFTER they are "in."

Just listen to Jesus speak and forget your preconceived notions (as I had to do when I really studied this issue).Again, you are changing the words of Jesus around to fit what you want to believe.

If preconceived notions" means ignore the rest of the discourse, then no, I won't do that, canady.

We are reading John 10:25-30 but go back to 10:7-18 where He speaks to those same "Jews." This is where we find out HOW one becomes a "sheep" --- "by Me, if any man enter he shall be saved." (10:9) So this gives us 1) knowledge that salvation is by the volition of "men" who will "enter" through Christ and 2) tells us why they are His sheep.

You asked where a certain line of thinking would take a person. That's what I meant. I believe you would not have chosen Christ if God had not changed you.

Do you see where I'm coming from now (John 10:7-18 is relevant to free will salvation, denies sovereign grace, and is relevant to 10:25-30, hearing Christ POST salvation)??

If God is responding to something you have done by your own will power, I don't see how that can be called the giving of grace (unmerited favor),

That is exactly why most people, even believers, cannot live the Christian life, canady. Their will is rarely overpowered by God's will. If they could get "filled" with the Spirit (though NOT regenerated yet) or the Spirit would "quicken their mortal bodies," they would gladly choose God's will as their own will.

Example: God wants us to attend church, right? Heb 10:25 But how many of us get excited about it? How many expect to meet God every time they go? There are even some believers who don't want to meet God on some particular weeks just as if they, too, were lost!

Why is that? Not filled with or quickened by the Spirit. And in John 6:63 Jesus says, "It is the spirit that quickeneth;... the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." It is here that we see that the flesh/carnal is quickened, not by God directly, but by the spoken word -- by preaching.

There is no such thing as being regenerated and not having faith.

So it really IS a matter of "the chicken or the egg," right?

Your analogy to baptismal regeneration is clearly flawed.

No, that's AUGUSTINE'S analogy.

As far as the history of regeneration preceding faith having its origins in infant baptism, I would like to see a link or two to prove that assertion.

It carried over from the Catholic traditions. Luther questioned it -- Calvin required it and seemed to go along with Augustine's regeneration model as I documented on my thread on Sproul's book Willing to Believe.

You are simply going to have to show scripture support for your doctrine that O.T. saints could not get forgiveness "in their spirits".

Heb 9:9, 13-14

David even asked God not to remove His Spirit from him.

The clear teaching of which was that God could take His Spirit away then but we KNOW that He cannot now,.

skypair

 

[skypair]

One is for salvation (which is why it is called saving faith) and the other is apparently for great works of faith on the part of believers.

That's what I thought -- no real way to separate them. It is merely that "faith" or "belief" always moves us to the "next level" -- action (like repentance).

In the Bible, there is no difference. To believe something is to have faith.

OK, let's test drive" that notion. What was your personal, experiential, Heb 11:1 "evidence" that you could be saved by faith or by believing?

Election to individual salvation is "before the foundation of hte world" which means it is not temporal.

Spiritual election only came up because I was trying to see it your way (though the Bible, I now realize, doesn't). Since that is quite another issue, I'll leave it at that.

skypair

 

[Isaiah40:28]

"To those who made that wise choice ." Is it due to someone's superior wisdom , strength , insight , keen perception , or independent mindset that they are born again ?!

Good question, Rippon. Now comes the backpedaling.

 

[skypair]

But for entirely different reasons and different ends. They have nothing in common.

Unless Satan can take many forms and God only one.

Even if God only knew beforehand, you still have no choice but to do what God knows you will do.

Now there's a Cavlinist "brain teaser" if I ever saw one!! :laugh:

You're saying that God's knowing beforehand what we will choose takes away our choice?? By "slight of hand" you appear to have slipped "predetermination" into the free will formulation under a innocent guise of what God knows beforehand! :laugh:

Or are you finally agreeing with free will regarding our defintion of foreknowledge?

skypair

 

[skypair]

The WCF is amply documented with Scripture, and those who wrote it were firm adherents of sola Scriptura, which is why they amply documented it as such.

I think there is one distiction between scripture and Calvinism though --- the authors of scripture were not "follow[ing] cunningly devised fables." (1Pet 1:16)

This is extremely important as we consider the origins of the Reform/Calvinist tradition. It is steeped in Augustinianism who was enthralled with Plato's philosophies.

skypair

 

[webdog]

Good question, Rippon. Now comes the backpedaling.

What backpedaling? Being "born again" comes by God only, what Rippon asked. This is christianity 101. This doesn't mean faith comes by God.

 

[Pastor Larry]

That's what I thought -- no real way to separate them. It is merely that "faith" or "belief" always moves us to the "next level" -- action (like repentance).

How does this show that there is no real way to separate them?

What was your personal, experiential, Heb 11:1 "evidence" that you could be saved by faith or by believing?

Not sure what you are asking for here?

Spiritual election only came up because I was trying to see it your way (though the Bible, I now realize, doesn't).

Spiritual election to salvation is what the Bible teaches, so I am not sure what you are saying here that you realize. My question was about how election "before the foundation of the world" is temporal.

Unless Satan can take many forms and God only one.

In reference to Calvinism and Islam, this doesn't make sense to me.

Now there's a Cavlinist "brain teaser" if I ever saw one!!

You're saying that God's knowing beforehand what we will choose takes away our choice?? By "slight of hand" you appear to have slipped "predetermination" into the free will formulation under a innocent guise of what God knows beforehand!

Or are you finally agreeing with free will regarding our defintion of foreknowledge?

So do you have an answer to this challenging question? Are you free to change your mind from what God knows beforehand you will do? Or are you predetermined not to change your mind from his foreknowledge?

I think there is one distiction between scripture and Calvinism though --- the authors of scripture were not "follow cunningly devised fables." (1Pet 1:16)

So what is the distinction since Calvinism doesn't follow cunningly devised fables either?

This is extremely important as we consider the origins of the Reform/Calvinist tradition. It is steeped in Augustinianism who was enthralled with Plato's philosophies.

It seems that some study in church history and philosphy is in order, as well as some study in the word. Calvinistic soteriology is the product of the word of God, not philosophy.

 

[Amy.G]

When Jesus came to "His sheep", in context these are the Jews. He came to "His own", but they did not receive Him.

The sheep that know "His" voice and follow Him are the Jews that had understood OT prophecies of the coming Messiah. Therefore, they were ready to receive Him. In contrast to the Pharisees who had spent their lives being self righteous and had ignored the true meaning of the scriptures.

Any Jew who loved God (the Father) also believed God and knew that the Messiah would come. They were waiting for Him. These are the sheep that will "know" the Messiah when He comes. (Know my voice and follow Me)


Jhn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God. Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Also, we see that understanding and believing the scriptures is all that is needed to come to Christ.


Luk 16:27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
Luk 16:28 'for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
Luk 16:29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
Luk 16:30 "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
Luk 16:31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"

If the Jews didn't believe the OT prophets regarding the coming of the Messiah, then they would not believe the Messiah when He came.
They would not "hear" His voice.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

What backpedaling? Being "born again" comes by God only, what Rippon asked. This is christianity 101. This doesn't mean faith comes by God.

Hi webdog,
Rippon is asking DHK if the reason for man's "wise choice" is to be found in something in man, such as "superior wisdom, strength, insight, keen perception, or independent mindset".
I think DHK will just explain away his words of "to those that made the wise choice",which is why I said there will be backpedalling.
What causes one man to make the "wise choice" while the other man makes the "foolish choice"?
That's what Rippon's question appears to asking DHK.

 

[DHK]

Hi webdog,
Rippon is asking DHK if the reason for man's "wise choice" is to be found in something in man, such as "superior wisdom, strength, insight, keen perception, or independent mindset".
I think DHK will just explain away his words of "to those that made the wise choice",which is why I said there will be backpedalling.
What causes one man to make the "wise choice" while the other man makes the "foolish choice"?
That's what Rippon's question appears to asking DHK.

Have you ever read Josh McDowell's testimony? It is in the back of his book "Evidence that Demand's a Verdict," a very good apologetic book. McDowell didn't want to have anything to do with Christ and was willing to prove the deity of Christ wrong. The more research he did, the more he found out that the claims of Christ were true. But the one thing that really changed his life was the witness (the inward witness) of a group of Christians on the campus of the university where he was attending. He could see that there was something different about them. They had something that others didn't have. He didn't know what it was. But whatever it was, he wanted it.
Thus through a combination of "superior wisdom" and "keen perception" he came to Christ. Yes, you answered your own question quite well.

 

[Rippon]

Thus through a combination of "superior wisdom" and "keen perception" he came to Christ. Yes, you answered your own question quite well.

Nonsense . Who maketh thee to differ DHK ? It is not due to your superior-anything , nor Josh's . If anyone is made regenerate , or 'quickened' as the KJV has it -- Scripture asserts that you did not bring on your salvation -- God alone makes the spiritually dead alive .The power of your 'decision' is nothing . From the start to the conclusion the Lord ALONE is the Author and Finisher of our faith .

 

[Pastor Larry]

Thus through a combination of "superior wisdom" and "keen perception" he came to Christ. Yes, you answered your own question quite well.

Wow ... If there was ever an unbiblical statement of the gospel, this has to be it. This is right up there with some of the worst stuff I have ever heard. How in the world can you espouse this, DHK?

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Wow ... If there was ever an unbiblical statement of the gospel, this has to be it. This is right up there with some of the worst stuff I have ever heard. How in the world can you espouse this, DHK?

Because he is honest. Non-Calvinists typically are not honest with the question.

 

[webdog]

Because he is honest. Non-Calvinists typically are not honest with the question.

...like you are not honest with this post?

 

[skypair]

Not sure what you are asking for here?

Do you have "faith" in the rapture? If so, what is your "evidence," Heb 11:1? Or do you have faith in God and therefore believe in (hope for) the rapture?

My question was about how election "before the foundation of the world" is temporal.

It regards temporal things -- Israel, the church, individual believers.

So do you have an answer to this challenging question? Are you free to change your mind from what God knows beforehand you will do?

Sure! My mind is not bound by what God foresees. What God foresees is which way I chose.

So what is the distinction since Calvinism doesn't follow cunningly devised fables either? ... Calvinistic soteriology is the product of the word of God, not philosophy.

Let's just consider how any new convert in his 20's in 2 years can write Institutes with only the Bible in hand and yet name Augustine so many times in that work. Could YOU have gotten it all right without wholesale plagerism?

So we go back to see where Augustine got his information. Plato, tradition, etc. weaving scripture (of course) into the fable City of God, for instnance. And so much of this was already in the Catholic Church -- just understood a little differently.

Anyway, even to the casual observer it seems clear that Augustine was the source of the "cunningly devised fable" and he brought in scripture to bolster his thesis.

skypair