God Got The Memo

[Dale-c]

No one forced you to do so.

A common caricature of calvinism is that God forces people against their will.

Nothing could be further from the truth.
Man always chooses what he wants freely.
However his will is not really free.
It is only free to the point of his nature.

Just a natural man can't trust Christ because it is against his nature, a regenerated man will always trust Christ because it is his nature.

Our "wants" change.
the glory of election is not that God strongarms us against out will but makes us willing to love Him.
He makes us desire Him.
He give us a new heart to seek him.

It makes me want to praise Him just to think about it!

 

[Bethelassoc]

Reading through this thread and seeing some of the comments (ouch!), I would have to say that there is a misnomer about hyper calvinism, which is going beyond the realm of calvinism.

From what some have ascertained about the calvinists on here, you are actually referring to the Absolute Predestinarians and Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Baptists, which Pinoybaptist truthfully stated that the Primitive Baptists, as a majority, do not agree with, nor fellowship with them.

Just another point, these same hyper calvinists also have another step further than the absolutes, and that is the "no hellers". The universalist Primitive Baptists that believe all will be saved.

Neither one of these groups have been represented on here, so hyper calvinism doesn't apply nor make sense to use.



David

 

[D28guy]

BethelAssoc,

"Just another point, these same hyper calvinists also have another step further than the absolutes, and that is the "no hellers". The universalist Primitive Baptists that believe all will be saved."

Interesting. I never knew their was a baptist group that is universalist.

I'm curious, when you say...

"The universalist Primitive Baptists that believe all will be saved."

...are you saying that all Primitive Baptists believe that, or that a particular branch of the Primitive Baptists group believe it?

The way your statement is worded it could be both.

Which is it?

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Revmitchell]

A common caricature of calvinism is that God forces people against their will.

Nothing could be further from the truth.
Man always chooses what he wants freely.
However his will is not really free.
It is only free to the point of his nature.

Just a natural man can't trust Christ because it is against his nature, a regenerated man will always trust Christ because it is his nature.

Our "wants" change.
the glory of election is not that God strongarms us against out will but makes us willing to love Him.
He makes us desire Him.
He give us a new heart to seek him.

It makes me want to praise Him just to think about it!

First you say that God does not force us but simply changes our nature. Then you say He makes us desire Him. Do you have any concern that that appears contradictory?

 

[TCGreek]

Perhaps I'm guilty of misunderstanding non-calvinistic positions too.

 

[DHK]

A common caricature of calvinism is that God forces people against their will.

Nothing could be further from the truth.
Man always chooses what he wants freely.
However his will is not really free.
It is only free to the point of his nature.

Just a natural man can't trust Christ because it is against his nature, a regenerated man will always trust Christ because it is his nature.

Herein lies the fallacy of Calvinism.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
You (Calvinists) want to dissect salvation into a works based salvation much like the Church of Christ, wherein every little act becomes a work. Thus salvation is no longer by faith alone. The Church of Christ believes is: faith + regeneration + confession + repentance + baptism = salvation. It is a five step process to salvation. With you it is faith + regeneration = salvation. You don't believe it is by faith alone.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Is being "justified" regeneration or salvation, or is being born again? Or now do you have a three step program in the process of a works based salvation?

When I got saved:
I was born again by the Spirit of God, indwelt by the Spirit of God, regenerated by the Spirit of God, justified, sanctified, made righteous by His blood, born into His family, adopted and made an heir of God and joint-heir with Jesus Christ; I was sealed unto the day of redemption, and it all happened in a moment, that very moment that I made the decision to trust Christ as my Saviour.

Our "wants" change.

The desire I had to be saved on that day did not change. But I could have resisted. I had the choice.

the glory of election is not that God strongarms us against out will but makes us willing to love Him.

Chapter and verse please. You have an unbiblical concept of the working of the Holy Spirit. Is this what you call "makes us willing to love Him?"

Acts 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
--Aaaah what a picture of peace and love..

Acts 7:57-58 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
--The conviction of the Holy Spirit was great. I believe it was also one of the contributing factors that led to Saul's conversion. But it wasn't a pretty, loving, peaceful, situation.

He makes us desire Him.
He give us a new heart to seek him.

Just like Saul desired the Lord at that time, during the stoning of Stephen??
Give me a break!!

It makes me want to praise Him just to think about it!

Tell that to Paul when he and Silas were thrown into prison because certain ones were convicted of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

 

[skypair]

A common caricature of calvinism is that God forces people against their will.

It comes from the Calvinist teaching that we would never of our own will come to God. That being the case, it must then be against our will that we are "drawn" (which many Calvinists will point out in the lexicons means "drag" -- which also suggests compulsion).

However his will is not really free.
It is only free to the point of his nature.

And this is you espousing the need for compulsion so as to change man's nature. BTW, many see compulsion as allowable on account of 1) Luke 14:22 and 2) on account of "Mamma Babylon," the RCC, used compulsion/force (as did Calvin after her).

...a regenerated man will always trust Christ because it is his nature.

Let's think about that, dale. No, a regenerated man won't always trust Christ. It won't be but a few hours, if that, before he will go out and sin again. Sinning is not "new naturedly" trusting Christ. And if you can sin after you are regenerated, you can reject Christ after you are regenerated. Thus, the emphasis in salvation is not regeneration but is our decision. We choose Christ and then we receive the power to live like Him if we will.

skypair

 

[Bethelassoc]

BethelAssoc,



Interesting. I never knew their was a baptist group that is universalist.

I'm curious, when you say...



...are you saying that all Primitive Baptists believe that, or that a particular branch of the Primitive Baptists group believe it?

The way your statement is worded it could be both.

Which is it?

Thanks,

Mike

Sorry for the confusion. It's just a little group of "Primitive" Baptists that believe in such a universalist thought. Majority of Primitive Baptists are called Old Line. They reject Absolute Predestination (held by another, smaller group of PBs) let alone the No Hellers movement.

David

 

[Rippon]

Better watch out, rip, God's gonna get you!

skypair

The LORD got me a long time ago . I am firmly in His All-powerful Hands .

 

[Rippon]

Yeah, that's the advice Bildad gave to Job in Job 8:8. You're right on track with the WRONG answers.

skypair

Correction . The true citation is 8:9 SP . And don't be so quick to dismiss all of Bildad's words . He was one of the three 'comforters' and he did not speak correctly about the Lord as such -- but all of his words can't be disregarded with a wave of the hand .

 

[Rippon]

So even though the Holy Spirit was involved ...

Back to the bystanding God of your imagination again DHK ? "Even though the Holy Spirit was involved ." Do not marginalize His role .

 

[skypair]

I am firmly in His All-powerful Hands .

Better check and see if they are around your scrawny THROAT before they really start feeling powerful! :laugh:

skypair

 

[DHK]

Back to the bystanding God of your imagination again DHK ? "Even though the Holy Spirit was involved ." Do not marginalize His role .

I marginialized nothing but spoke the truth. Isn't it odd how the slightest dispute about grammar or the way a sentence is worded will cause you to ignore the entire post. Here, I'll quote it again so you can make a proper response:

So even though the Holy Spirit was involved you admitted that you made a choice. After the Holy Spirit worked, then you sought Him, and then you chose Him. It was of your own free will that you chose Him. You made the decision. No one forced you to do so. There is no such thing here as irresistable grace. For you did have the choice to resist God's grace at that time. The choice was still in your hands whether to receive or reject Christ.

 

[skypair]

And don't be so quick to dismiss all of Bildad's words . He was one of the three 'comforters' and he did not speak correctly about the Lord as such -- but all of his words can't be disregarded with a wave of the hand .

As with Calvin. As with skypair. Even you, rip, got some of it right.

BTW, another memory -- Dr Rogers sermon on Job. The 3 "comforters" brought the gospels of mysticism (dreams and visions), human wisdom ("inquire of the former age"), and ritualism ("stretch out thy hands toward Him").

The only one with the true "gospel" was Elihu, rip. Job 32:8 "But there is a spirit in man [Elihu knew about the ALREADY conscience in the soul of man]: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding [and about the Holy Spirit speaking to their souls]. Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment [There's your Calvinism spoken of by Elihu]."

skypair

 

[Rippon]

I am not complaining about trifles

Post #3 of this thread you said : "He may be involved in our salvation ." If that is the extent of the Lord's involvement in our salvation -- your view is decidely unbiblical . Your view is very unscriptural and brings dishonor on the Name of the Lord .

From the thread : "Is Calvinism A False Doctrine" you said the following in post # 243 : " I believed . It was my faith . It was my decision . God did not force me to make this decision . HE KNEW ABOUT IT OF COURSE. BUT THE DECISION WAS MINE AND MINE ALONE ." [emboldened by me ]

Leaving God off on the sidelines in your view of salvation is wrong , wrong , wrong . I don't know of any non-Cal who would join you in this heterodox error .

You are saying things that are not biblical .

 

[DHK]

You are saying things that are not biblical .

Let's be clear in that quote.
Most of those words beside "post #3" are your words, not mine.
The statements that I did make, taken in their context are quite Scriptural.
Get it right Rip. That which is against Calvinism is not necessarily against the Bible! CALVIN DOES NOT = BIBLE!

 

[Rippon]

Let's be clear in that quote.
Most of those words beside "post #3" are your words, not mine.
The statements that I did make, taken in their context are quite Scriptural.
Get it right Rip. That which is against Calvinism is not necessarily against the Bible! CALVIN DOES NOT = BIBLE!

The Lord may be involved with our salvation .

The Holy Spirit may be involved in our salvation .


The above are your words and no amount of contextualization and nuancing can free you from those kind of statements unless you wish to reconsider your comments and change your belief on the matter .

And it's not a matter of sticking to Calvinism on my part . Apart from your buddy SP , I do not know of a single non-Cal on this board who would go along with your unorthodox views here .

The Lord may be involved in our salvation ! Think about the ramifications of that . He may , or He may not . You really don't know . It's not so definitive in your mind . And it's not a case of poorly phrased wording on your part you have said those kinds of things repeatedly . For me to object to those views you go back to your tired ole' Calvin=Bible tirade .

 

[DHK]

You are saying things that are not biblical .

To answer a previous post of yours:
You may be saved but that doesn't give you the right to falsely accuse me.

Did I just infer that you were not saved?
No. So why would you suggest that I infer that my statements are unbiblical about the Holy Spirit? You are being ludricous in your attacks on me because of my choice of words and sentence structure, and that is all.
Since when does grammar and sentence structure determine whether one is "unscriptural"?

You have quite an odd way of determining doctrine.

 

[DHK]

You are saying things that are not biblical .

I have not said anything that is not Biblical. That accusation is just a red herring to get you away from answering this response, which will now be the third time I have posted it. You seem to have a hard time responding to it:

So even though the Holy Spirit was involved you admitted that you made a choice. After the Holy Spirit worked, then you sought Him, and then you chose Him. It was of your own free will that you chose Him. You made the decision. No one forced you to do so. There is no such thing here as irresistable grace. For you did have the choice to resist God's grace at that time. The choice was still in your hands whether to receive or reject Christ.

 

[Rippon]

So why would you suggest that I infer that my statements are unbiblical about the Holy Spirit?

Why would I suggest that you infer that your statements are unbiblical about the Holy Spirit ?! Speak in more understandable English .

You have repeatedly stated unscriptural things . God may or may not be involved in one's salvation according to DKH-ism , but the Bible begs to differ with you .