God hardened their hearts

[Timtoolman]

And Johnp what was the reason for the delusion?

verse 10

and with all he deception of wickedness for those who perish BECAUSE (THEY) did not recieve the love of the truth so as to be saved.

 

[Timtoolman]

Great post, Ben, and another pt driven home. If the calvinist god is a lair and deciever how do they know they can trust him.

 

[Timtoolman]

john. [/qb][/QUOTE]Johnp Let me say that I have no problem with your interptation which seems to say the pt is. Salvation is impossiable for man. But why does it pt out for a rich man? I was asking because It seems consistant with the fact that men who have much are distracted or do not feel they need God. Now the poor on the other hand have less attachement to this world. So why do you think he uses the rich man and not just man?
And if it is harder for a rich man is it because of his own ties to this world that he uses as an excuse to reject Jesus? It seems to imply that the rich men have a harder time, did not say impossiable, getting to heaven then those that aren't. [/QB][/QUOTE]

????????

 

[johnp.]

Hello Tim.

And Johnp what was the reason for the delusion?

It doesn't matter what the delusion is for it proves the fact that God does use lies to deceive people doesn't it? That's all man. That's all I wanted to point out.

and with all he deception of wickedness for those who perish BECAUSE (THEY) did not recieve the love of the truth so as to be saved.

When does God cut into our free will then? You are in agreement that free will is denied some men? If they have free will to decide to be wicked at which point in that wickedness is it ok to deny them their free will, I thought the oppotunity would be there until we die?
If a punishment comes down upon those who use their free will is it still free?

And if it is harder for a rich man...

Harder than what? Harder than a camel going through the eye of the needle? How hard is that then? He made the point about the richman because He wanted to dispel the commonly held belief that a richman is blessed by God. He uses the richman as an example because they thought if any can make it a richman can but it is harder for a richman, they thought it an easy thing, than it is for a camel going through the eye of a needle? He does not say it is easier for the poor but says it is impossible for man.

God works through cause and effect. A brick will not hit you on the foot unless a brick is dropped. A man's desires are used by God for the working out of His purposes. Life is based on cause and effect but the scriptures tell us plainly who it is that causes cause and effect.

john.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by johnp.:
It doesn't matter what the delusion is for it proves the fact that God does use lies to deceive people doesn't it? That's all man. That's all I wanted to point out.

Exactly. Shame on those who twist this into claiming that we are saying God lies. The Biblical fact that God uses lies is not the same thing as saying God lies.

Originally posted by johnp.:
Harder than what? Harder than a camel going through the eye of the needle? How hard is that then? He made the point about the richman because He wanted to dispel the commonly held belief that a richman is blessed by God. He uses the richman as an example because they thought if any can make it a richman can but it is harder for a richman, they thought it an easy thing, than it is for a camel going through the eye of a needle? He does not say it is easier for the poor but says it is impossible for man.

Good explanation. Many (today) read that passage and think the moral is that it's especially hard for a rich man to get into the kingdom of God.

But if this is the moral, then the response doesn't make any sense: (I paraphrase), "If this is true, who on earth can be saved?"

The response implies, "If it's THAT hard for a rich man, then what possible hope is there for anyone else?" The immediate audience must have believed it was easier for rich men.

 

[Timtoolman]

Now you are backing off your own claims that your god is a liar and deciever. Hmmmm trying to get out of that corner without getting paint on you,eh?! grin

Sure wasn't any of you denying it ealier, kept throwing verses at us to prove He was. Now we are back peddling......again!

 

[johnp.]

How about this one Tim?

Now we are back peddling......again!

Cool confession man. You need a free wheel to back peddle don't you?

john.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by johnp.:
How about this one Tim?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Now we are back peddling......again!

Cool confession man. You need a free wheel to back peddle don't you?

john. </font>[/QUOTE]Sigh you are about......8 years old it seems.

 

[johnp.]

What's wrong with being 8?

john.

 

[Timtoolman]

The. remarks

 

[johnp.]

Hello Tim.

The. questions

It doesn't matter what the delusion is for it proves the fact that God does use lies to deceive people doesn't it?

When does God cut into our free will then?

You are in agreement that free will is denied some men?

If they have free will to decide to be wicked at which point in that wickedness is it ok to deny them their free will, I thought the oppotunity would be there until we die?

If a punishment comes down upon those who use their free will is it still free?

Harder than what? Harder than a camel going through the eye of the needle? How hard is that then?

What's wrong with being 8?


john.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Now you are backing off your own claims that your god is a liar and deciever. Hmmmm trying to get out of that corner without getting paint on you,eh?! grin

Sure wasn't any of you denying it ealier, kept throwing verses at us to prove He was. Now we are back peddling......again!

You are the one who keeps telling us we're saying God is a liar. We keep reminding you that this isn't what we're saying at all. We're saying God sometimes uses lies to accomplish His will.

If you can't tell the difference, that's your problem.

 

[npetreley]

Nothing is wrong with being 8. I've been 8 now for 45 years, and have enjoyed every minute of it.