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God Hardening Pharaoh's Heart
- Thread starter Tom Bryant
- Start date
Tom Butler
New Member
God himself provided the answer in Exodus 9:16LeBuick said:
"But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power, and that my name be proclaimed in all the earth."
Butler translation: I raised you up so I could knock you down.
Paul adds in Romans 9:17, loose translation (mine) Therefore God has mercy on whoever he wants to, and hardens whoever he wants to.
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
We come up on some almost contradictory facts (They don't contradict, but to our limited mind, they only seem to),
Thank you for a great discussion. This is a fascinating issue.
- God had said in Gen 12:3 that He was going to bless those who bless the descendents of Abraham and curse those who cursed them.
- The Pharaoh of the Exodus as well as his father/grandfather had cursed the Hebrews with slavery and tried to murder them.
- Pharaoh's behavior had certainly harden his heart. He had had tried to destroy a whole group of people out of fear. (Exodus 1:8-10)
- God had decided to harden his heart and destroy him and his first born even before Moses had gone back to Egypt (4:21-23).
- God has a right to do whatever He pleases and whatever He does is good. (Psalm 115:3) and we have no right to question him (Job 40:2)
- But Pharaoh obviously hardened his own heart even more. (8:32; 9:34)
- God's purpose in hardening a heart or anything else he does is that His purposes and plans should be accomplished and that he would receive the glory that is due Him. (Isaiah 46:9-10
Thank you for a great discussion. This is a fascinating issue.
Tom Butler
New Member
Tom Bryant said:
An excellent point. We don't find anywhere where God hardens the hearts of believers.
This is the point...an unregenerated person would not need their heart hardened by God, that is why I believe it is hyperbolic in nature in the same way these verses are used...MB said:
Exo 22:24 My anger will burn, and I will kill you with the sword; then your wives will be widows and your children fatherless.
Lev 26:6 I will give peace to the land, and you will lie down with nothing to frighten you. I will remove dangerous animals from the land, and no sword will pass through your land.
Lev 26:33 But I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw a sword to chase after you. So your land will become desolate, and your cities will become ruins.
2Ki 19:7 I am about to put a spirit in him, and he will hear a rumor and return to his own land where I will cause him to fall by the sword.'"
Salamander
New Member
The truth is that Pharoah did believe in God, especially when God overpowered Egypt with their own gods.
He just failed to trust in Israel's God because he was ruler over them and his thoughts were he was god over them and no one else. But when his firstborn died he realized the truth but had sinned away his day of grace.
God in His omniscience knew this beforehand. In His Sovereignty God hardened his heart after Pharaoah reached the point of no return.
Did Pharoah ever have a chance to repent? Yes, but God knew he wouldn't.
Pharoah in his anger towards God tried to play the part of the devil and destroy God's people but failed, destroying his own army instead.
These are simple truths not flagrant or flambouyant enough for some of yall.:sleeping_2:
He just failed to trust in Israel's God because he was ruler over them and his thoughts were he was god over them and no one else. But when his firstborn died he realized the truth but had sinned away his day of grace.
God in His omniscience knew this beforehand. In His Sovereignty God hardened his heart after Pharaoah reached the point of no return.
Did Pharoah ever have a chance to repent? Yes, but God knew he wouldn't.
Pharoah in his anger towards God tried to play the part of the devil and destroy God's people but failed, destroying his own army instead.
These are simple truths not flagrant or flambouyant enough for some of yall.:sleeping_2:
Tom Butler
New Member
Why don't we just take the scripture as it is, instead of trying to figure a way to make it fit our theology.
God hardened Pharoah's heart. Pharoah hardened his own heart. Some of the posts seem to say that Pharoah's heart was already hard and God didn't really harden him. Except that God probably made it harder. It's quite a stretch to make it all hyperbolic.
We don't have to understand it, but we can believe God did what he said he'd do, and what the scripture said he did.
God hardened Pharoah's heart. Pharoah hardened his own heart. Some of the posts seem to say that Pharoah's heart was already hard and God didn't really harden him. Except that God probably made it harder. It's quite a stretch to make it all hyperbolic.
We don't have to understand it, but we can believe God did what he said he'd do, and what the scripture said he did.
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
Tom Butler said:
I think that is a great point about alot of stories and truths in Scripture. We have a system and read everything in light of that system. In so doing we try to systematize and unsystematic God who always seems to surprise us.
Of course there are absolutes that we can't quibble on and still be Biblical. But some actions of an eternal, infinite, sovereign God are going to make us scratch our heads and say, "huh?" Because His ways are above our ways and they are past finding out.
You don't believe in hyperbole? Did God literally strike people down with swords...pick up and move dangerous animals from the land ...chase after people with swords...detain and insert lying spirits into people? Why don't we take this and scores of other Scripture like it "as it is"?Tom Butler said:
Tom Butler
New Member
webdog said:
The passages you used as examples are good examples of hyperbole. They are obvious.
The passages dealing with hardening are not so obvious. A good rule of thumb is to take them literally unless they obviously aren't.
Tom Butler
New Member
webdog said:
I'm not going to rehash that argument for the umpteenth time.
May I ask you to explain how those passages dealing with hardening are hyperbole? I know, you could rightfully insist that I answer your question first, but I'm just not going to go over the same ground as 100 other threads.
Ironic you cannot answer that. It would blow your theory out of the water...Tom Butler said:
I've already said they are two different perspectives of the same event. The beginning of chapter 7 also states that God would make moses seem like God to Pharaoh. Is He violating His own command to not have other gods before Him by making Pharaoh believe Moses is God?
Last edited by a moderator:
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Webdog,webdog said:
Before I begin, let me say I have enjoyed looking at your avatars.
As to your above question, I would politely say that you know better. God tells Moses that He (God) made Moses like God to Pharaoh. God never gives the impression that Moses is to be set up as God. This is further exemplified by Moses repeatedly telling Pharaoh that he (Moses) wanted to take the Israelites into the wilderness to worship their God, not himself.
I hope you are doing well. Are the Avatars a new addition????
The Archangel
Hi all,
We are often so stubborn to the way we believe and the way we have been taught that we are not open to anything else or any other "Theology". Believe it or not, we miss out on much joy because of our own blindness.
In my mind, I cannot understand how God has always been. Never a starting point. I cannot understand it. It is hard enough to grasp the concept of everlasting. I do not know how the stars hang in the sky or understand how the earth orbits the sun. What keeps the stars from crashing down on us or the earth swing too fast and go spinning through the galaxy? The sovereign hand of God is the only answer I trust.
We don't have to know everything, we just need to have faith and trust that God will work it out according to His plan. Fact is, if we believe it or not, it will still work out that way :godisgood:
The hardest thing to do sometimes is admit that we are not in control. Truth is, we are all at God's mercy.
There is great, unbelievable joy in accepting that fact that God Chose me. I was undeserving, totally lost, rebelling against Christ. Yet, through His love, kindness and mercy, He chose me. It leaves me speachless at times when I think about it.
There is also great, unspeakable joy to know that when God spoke to me, I willingly came running after Him. Begging Him to have mercy on my lost soul. It makes my heart sing with everlasting joy to know that when I cried out to Him, He freely forgave me.
Why do we want to deny ourself such joy? Worse yet, often speak harshly to those that see a side of God that we may not be willing and/or able to see?
We can learn from one another and receive unlimited joy in both the sovereignty of God and the responsiblity of man.
God hardened Pharaoh's heart. The Bible says it plainly. Pharaoh hardened his own heart, the Bible says it plainly. To ignore either is to accept only half of the Word of God. What this scripture teaches me is that God was glorified. He was glorified by His sovereign work and by the obediance of Moses.
We are often so stubborn to the way we believe and the way we have been taught that we are not open to anything else or any other "Theology". Believe it or not, we miss out on much joy because of our own blindness.
In my mind, I cannot understand how God has always been. Never a starting point. I cannot understand it. It is hard enough to grasp the concept of everlasting. I do not know how the stars hang in the sky or understand how the earth orbits the sun. What keeps the stars from crashing down on us or the earth swing too fast and go spinning through the galaxy? The sovereign hand of God is the only answer I trust.
We don't have to know everything, we just need to have faith and trust that God will work it out according to His plan. Fact is, if we believe it or not, it will still work out that way :godisgood:
The hardest thing to do sometimes is admit that we are not in control. Truth is, we are all at God's mercy.
There is great, unbelievable joy in accepting that fact that God Chose me. I was undeserving, totally lost, rebelling against Christ. Yet, through His love, kindness and mercy, He chose me. It leaves me speachless at times when I think about it.
There is also great, unspeakable joy to know that when God spoke to me, I willingly came running after Him. Begging Him to have mercy on my lost soul. It makes my heart sing with everlasting joy to know that when I cried out to Him, He freely forgave me.
Why do we want to deny ourself such joy? Worse yet, often speak harshly to those that see a side of God that we may not be willing and/or able to see?
We can learn from one another and receive unlimited joy in both the sovereignty of God and the responsiblity of man.
God hardened Pharaoh's heart. The Bible says it plainly. Pharaoh hardened his own heart, the Bible says it plainly. To ignore either is to accept only half of the Word of God. What this scripture teaches me is that God was glorified. He was glorified by His sovereign work and by the obediance of Moses.
Salamander,
I think I know what you are saying, but I have a difficult time accepting this. I do not believe for a second that Pharaoh belived in God. Had he truly believed, he would have let Israel go. He would have also gave up the throne and went with them. Pharaoh believed in himself, his ways, his gods, his traditions.
To have a knowledge of something is not the believing that the Bible speaks of.
There are many people today that will openly say that they believe in God. But they do not "John 3:16" believe in Him. Pharaoh seen enough proof that he was satisfied that Israel's God did exist, but that is as far as he went with it. He was convinced that he could win and Israel was never going to leave.
Again, this may have been what you were saying. If so, :thumbs:
I think I know what you are saying, but I have a difficult time accepting this. I do not believe for a second that Pharaoh belived in God. Had he truly believed, he would have let Israel go. He would have also gave up the throne and went with them. Pharaoh believed in himself, his ways, his gods, his traditions.
To have a knowledge of something is not the believing that the Bible speaks of.
There are many people today that will openly say that they believe in God. But they do not "John 3:16" believe in Him. Pharaoh seen enough proof that he was satisfied that Israel's God did exist, but that is as far as he went with it. He was convinced that he could win and Israel was never going to leave.
Again, this may have been what you were saying. If so, :thumbs:
Tom Butler
New Member
webdog said:
Web, It is not that I cannot answer, I simply don't want to retrace the same ground. The two positions are well known and been discussed in detail before.
I will answer your other question. God does not violate his own commands. In fact, in 7:5, he tells Moses that the Egyptians will ultimately "Know that I am the Lord..."
Maybe 7:1 is hyperbole.