God has provided salvation for all mankind.

This is really getting silly. I know you asked James, but...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian:
James if you will tell me how you know you're one of them? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because he believes.
John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also if we couldn't choose then why have Jesus suffer in the first place? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a strawman argument, as explained in multiple threads here on Calvinism. Either you refuse to listen or are intentionally deceptive. The elect choose to follow Christ but can only do so because they have been enabled by grace, and called effectually by the Holy Spirit. The spiritually dead cannot choose Christ or salvation.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If God presdestined x number of people no matter what they did then why not just wait until all those who are predestined to be born and skip to revelation? Or better yet since it's just the few elect why not just create them and be done?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The simple answer is because it was his pleasure to do so. Your problem here is your theological paradigm. You view God as anthrocentric, as if he exists with one purpose: to save sinners. This is false. God is theocentric. WHat takes first place in the mind and heart of God is GOD. God loves God more than he loves you or me. Saving sinners is a means he uses to glorify his own name amidst creation, to proclaim his greatness among men, and angels and satan.

The chief end of God is to glorify God and enjoy himself forever. Who else will God glorify? God is righteous. He recognizes, welcomes, loves, and upholds with infinite jealousy and energy what is infinitely valuable, namely the worth of God.

Isaiah 48:9-11 "For My name’s sake I will defer My anger, And for My praise I will restrain it from you, So that I do not cut you off. 10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction. 11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another.”

There are six hammer blows here which shock many people:
For My name’s sake I will do these things!
For My name’s sake I will defer My anger!
for My praise I will restrain it from you!
For my Own sake! For My own sake!
How should my name be profaned!
I will not give My glory to another!

This passage hammers home the centrality of God in his own affections. The most passionate heart for the glorification of God is God’s heart.

God chose his people for his glory: Eph 1:4-6
God created us for his glory: Isaiah 43:6-7
God called Israel for his glory. Jer 13:11
God raised up Pharaoh to show his own power and glorify his own name: Rom 9:17
Jesus sought the glory of the Father in all he did: John 7:18
Jesus told us to do good works so that God gets the glory: Mt 5:16
Jesus said he answers prayer so that God gets the glory: John 12:27-28
God forgives our sins for his own sake: Isaiah 43:25
Jesus is coming again for the glory of God: 2 Thess 1:9-10
Even in wrath God’s aim is to make known the wealth of his glory: Rom 9:22-23

Jonathan Edwards said: “The great end of God’s works, which is so variously expressed in Scripture, is indeed but ONE; and this one end is most properly and comprehensively called, THE GLORY OF GOD.”

Until that concept is grasped, proper biblical theology is unattainable.

 

Amen! Amen! Amen!

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pioneer:
The Lord rebuke thee:

1 Timothy 1:15, "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

Romans 5:8, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

John 3:16-17, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

John 1:29, "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

1 John 2:2, "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just curious ... How is this rebuking to anything Chris has said? I would venture to guess that Chris agrees with everything you have just posted.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian:
I see I had to think on that thing a second. If it were all predestined then there would have been a provision for it from the get go.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya do have to "stop and think" about it, don't ya? LOL

 

1 John 2:2, "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."


Uh OH, Did I find a "lie" in the Bible?

If God predestinated some to Hell, and Jesus died for "ALL" the sins of "whole world", then Jesus died for some sins that God didn't predestinate to "forgive", so Jesus died "in vain" for those sins.

Comments???

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S. Baptist:
Comments???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ridiculous. This is why John and others have said the end of your position is universalism. If Christ propitiated the sins of the whole world, then no one would go to hell. All would be saved. Furthermore, if Christ died for the sins of the saved in the same manner that he died for the sins of the unsaved, then God would be unjust for he would be requiring a double payment for sin.

YOu need to develop the practice of theological discernment and thinking.

 

Pioneer and Brian,

Was reading through this thread and it seems much from both sides revolves around the word “all.” I’m going to ask a couple questions to see if I understand your position better.

Do you believe the Bible teaches that God’s plan was to send Christ Jesus to save all sinners?

Is God’s mercy something that is for all sinners?

This next question is not meant to be an attack. I am just curious. I'm curious if either of you have done a study (not just a casual reading)of the whole book of Romans or even a chronalogical study through the OT and the gospels? Yes or no would be fine.


Steve

[ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: PackerBacker ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:


Just curious ... How is this rebuking to anything Chris has said? I would venture to guess that Chris agrees with everything you have just posted.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right ... except the "Lord rebuke thee" part

But that was good KJV English

 

The reason 'all' means so much is this. Quite simply it is a starting point of understanding and heres why. All sinners or all elect? Who did Christ die for? Ultimately only those who accept Him benefit from that sacrifce. Regardless of why they accept. So the all thing while nit picky needs to be clear or you loose frame of reference. Obviously there are at least two schools of thought here those who feel that God predestined them for salvation and thats why they accepted Christ making them one of the elect and those are the only people Christ died for. And those who believe that Christ died in atonement for all sin and those who accept that sacrifice go to heaven and those who reject it go to hell.

 

John Wells:
Ok, let me try to make the connection clearer about Gen. 3:15. We have been talking -- and talking about the word "all" and did Christ die for all or some or none, etc.

Gen. 3:15 makes VERY clear that from the very beginning there are two types of people. Christ's seed and Satan's seed. I don't see how anyone can say that the Father gave to Christ some of Satan's seed to die for. God will PUT perpetual enmity between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the women.

Are not the reprobate the ones to whom Christ will say "I NEVER YOU; depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt. 7:23). Doesn't it seem strange to you that Christ should die and redeem those that He will not own, professing He never knew them? Gen. 3:15 further points out that salvation was NOT offered to ALL without exception. Christ was to die for no more than God promised to Him that he should die for. But, it is at least clear to me, that God did not promise that He should die for the seed of the serpent.

There are two types of people here. The elect (the woman's seed) and the non-elect (the serpent's seed). To me, it is absurd that Jesus would have died for some that the Father had not given him to die for. (John 6:39).

As stated by me, and those that agree with me, it is very dishonoring to God to say that His atonement, to be effective, depends on the "choice" of unregenerated sinners, who are in the flesh and CANNOT please God.

Thanks for your comments.
James2

 

James,

Good job of preaching to the choir. It's Brian and Pioneer that you should address with this. But if you addressed me to get my opinion, good job and points well made and taken!

 

John Wells:
That's what I get for trying to listen to a friend tell me about his hard day at work, and try to type a post. Sorry. But thanks for the kind words. I think everyone will figure out who I meant to post to.

James2

 

Larry,

Patronizing is uncalled for.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pioneer:
You need to develop the practice of just believing the Bible for what it says. What do you mean "If Christ propitiated the sins of the whole world ..."? The Bible tells us plain and clear in 1 John 2:2, "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." Do you believe the Bible or don't you? Obviously you don't!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do believe the Bible. You know that. Stay away from the hyperbole.

Now, read the text you quoted: Christ is the propitiation for our sins and for the whole world's. Propitiation is satisfaction or atoning sacrifice. It appeases God's wrath. In being the propitiation for our sins, Christ satisfied the wrath of God on our behalf. Therefore, God will not punish us for our sins because he punished Christ for them. In what sense did Christ satisfy the wrath of God for the sins of the whole world?? Can God punish Christ for the sins of the whole world and then punish all the unbelievers for the same sins he just punished Christ for? That would be unjust for God would be punishing the same sins twice. I hope you agree that God is not unjust. Furthermore, if Christ propitiated their sins, then why does the wrath of God abide on them? Christ was supposed to have taken God's wrath away from those whose sins he propitiated.

You can't have it both ways. Your position leads to universalism because you believe Christ propitiated the sins of the whole world. I believe exactly what the Bible says.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What do you mean "if Christ died for the sins of the saved in the same manner that he died for the sins of the unsaved..."? What other manner is there other than him being our substitute?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The difference is between sufficiency and efficiency. Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for the sins of the world -- every sin that has ever been committed. Christ's sacrifice is only efficient for those who believe, the ones who have been appointed to eternal life (Acts 13:48).

Michael, I am not being patronizing to anyone. I am not sure what you are referring to that I said.

[ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Pastor Larry,
I'm a bit puzzled. Someone earlier quoted John 17:9 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

The elect are given to God and the world is, what, everyone else?

Yet you seem to indicate the word world in 1 John 2:2 really does means the elect? So when does the word world mean world and when does it means the elect?

I'm just not a Greek scholar. That must be it

I actually agree with the idea of sufficient and efficient.
Romans 3:22 "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe..."
25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation throught faith in his blood..."

The propitiation is sufficient to the world and efficient to all that believe. The righteousness of God (verse 22) is sufficient "unto all" (that doesn't equate to universalism) but only efficient "upon all that believe"

What about the word "every" in Hebrews 2:9?

Anyone see a pattern here? Hmmm--what do I mean by "anyone"?
I am being a little silly but I'm trying to figure some of this out

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:


Ridiculous. This is why John and others have said the end of your position is universalism. If Christ propitiated the sins of the whole world, then no one would go to hell. All would be saved. Furthermore, if Christ died for the sins of the saved in the same manner that he died for the sins of the unsaved, then God would be unjust for he would be requiring a double payment for sin.

YOu need to develop the practice of theological discernment and thinking.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


If man was "predestinated" and Jesus paid for all sin, all would go to heaven, But suppose Jesus paid for all sins but "YOU" refuse to accept Jesus's payment, then payment for your sin would still be owed, and you would still be classified as a "Lost sinner".

God is a "JUST GOD", equal opportunities to "as many as believe", it's "YOUR CHOICE", not God's.

Hey, I agree with ya.

YOu need to develop the practice of theological discernment and thinking

 

S., You keep going back to this phrase and idea of "equal opportunity." Would you please give Scriptural basis for it? Would you also please define and discuss the implications in terms of progresssive revelation, location (God who has put them in the place, Acts 17), mental ability, personality, etc. I think you will find very soon that "equal opportunity" has never existed. Even in this age, those living in America with a gospel preaching church within walking distance of the whole population have a great advantage (read unequal opportunity) over those who live in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, China, or one of a dozen other pagan nations. By your definition, these people do not have equal opportunity. Is God then unfair or unrighteous?

Theological thinking and discernment is what I have just demonstrated. I am suggesting that you think through not only the trite, simple statements that "preach well" but also the implications of what you are saying, the things that don't preach well.

Liberty, The answer is found in the context. You must study the argument of the passage you are referring to. As I have time, I will look more closely at the ones you have listed and try to answer. Perhaps one of the others will pick it up in the meantime.

 

By all means, anyone can join in.

Concerning the issue of "equal opportunity" look at Romans 1:18-32. God says in verse 20 that people who refuse the revelation of God are "without excuse". Throughout the passage it clearly shows people knowing about God but choosing not to accept it.

18 "..who hold the truth in unrighteousness"
Meaning they hold back, or hold down, or suppress the truth they know.

19 "...God hath showed it unto them..."
20 "...are clearly seen..even his eternal power and Godhead..."
21 "Because that, when they knew God..."
28 "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge..."
32 "Who knowing the judgment of God..."

If they (the unbeliever, non-elect, pagans--whatever label you wish) are without excuse, then they must have had opportunity to act on the knowledge God gave them. If they have opportunity, then God must have provided salvation for them. How could this be a non-sequitor? God's judgment is according to "truth" (Romans 2:2) and according to "my gospel" (Romans 2:16)

I'd recommend highly the book "Eternity in their Hearts" by missionary Don Richardson