1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

God hates all workers of iniquity.

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Mark Osgatharp, Jul 9, 2003.

Top Posters
Page 3 of 3
  1. Sola-Scriptura

    Sola-Scriptura New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2003
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mark,
    The Lord Jesus used harsh statements repeatedly. He sharply rebuked those who rejected Him, as in the verse you quoted. What is befuddling to me is that when someone who disagrees with your presuppositions but has obviously embraced the Master, can be casually tossed into the same cesspool as sodomites. Is it a vendetta you have against those who embrace the docrines of grace? Well, I'd hate to turn your stomach dear brother, but unlike those who defend homosexuality, you will be forced to endure eternity with many of us dreaded "Calvinist's". Possibly even in the same area of that Holy City :eek: . How intolerable will that be. I'll be sure to look you up first. Maybe I'll bring a couple friends over with me. Spurgeon, Edwards, Whitefield, Carey, Lloyd-Jones, Thomas Watson, Gill, Newton, Toplady, Knox, Owen, Bunyan, and even a few of your own Mayflower Pilgrims. Be sure to bring in enough pizza! [​IMG]
     
    #41 Sola-Scriptura, Jul 14, 2003
  2. Me2

    Me2 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,348
    Likes Received:
    0
    why is it that our songs of Gods great love for man doesnt equate with our understanding of his message?

    when Gods "amazing Grace" is only sufficient to save only 5% of his creation when the other 95% will be tormented forever.

    I guess we sing such great platitudes because were saved and there is no longer a care about God treating all of his creation equally.

    Pro 20:10 Divers weights, [and] divers measures, both of them [are] alike abomination to the LORD.

    if we are all sinners. God would be committing
    an abomination if he treated some one way and others differently..would'nt you agree?
     
    #42 Me2, Jul 14, 2003
  3. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bible-Only,

    Galatians 5:20-21 says,

    "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like."

    Paul could have just as easily added sodomites to this list of the "works of the flesh" and in fact did in a similar list in I Corinthians. Therefore the Lord did "casually toss" heretics into the same cesspool as sodomites.

    Now, if failing to embrace the "doctrines of grace" does not classify one as a heretic I don't know what would. Therefore if you want to be consistent with yourself you must toss me, along with all other non-Calvinists, into the same cesspool with sodomites.

    By the same token, I believe that Calvinism is not, despite it's vain boast, "the doctrines of grace" and therefore I do "casually toss" it into the same cesspool with sodomy. It is just another ungodly work of the flesh.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
    #43 Mark Osgatharp, Jul 14, 2003
  4. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    when Gods "amazing Grace" is only sufficient to save only 5% of his creation when the other 95% will be tormented forever.

    I guess we sing such great platitudes because were saved and there is no longer a care about God treating all of his creation equally.

    Pro 20:10 Divers weights, [and] divers measures, both of them [are] alike abomination to the LORD.

    if we are all sinners. God would be committing
    an abomination if he treated some one way and others differently..would'nt you agree?     </font>[/QUOTE]Me2,

    God's grace is sufficient to save every sinner in the world. God does not treat sinners differently. He offer's pardon and peace to all and if they don't get it it's because they did not accept it.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
    #44 Mark Osgatharp, Jul 14, 2003
  5. Me2

    Me2 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,348
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Mark,

    is a person called a sinner if they dont know what sin is?

    such are those who God doesnt Draw to his son..

    the only people who recognize what sin is are actually those whom God HAS drawn to his son.

    because those drawn to the Son must first face the law and its definitions of just what God calls sin...
    and it is the law that actually kills the works of the flesh. and allows us to realize we are dead to God and cannot save ourselves.. ergo we are "drawn" to jesus, our substitute in death.

    I say this simply to express that many are in this process of GRACE. some make mistakes and are drawn away to again participate in their sin of Choice, yet they are still a member of Gods family.

    that is why we extend mercy to them. they are just like us, sinners being SAVED by Grace.

    along with many other mistakes, we as christians make is to run around judging our brothers ans sisters.

    Mark, we dont have that right as spiritual beings.
    Judging others is a work of the flesh. it brings with it the possibility of variance.
    remember the sword. we're judging others with the law instead of allowing the holy spirit to use the law and its capabilities to uncover and destroy the works of the individuals flesh.

    if we judge each other, we are playing the role of satan as the accusser of our brother.
    its satan's job to accuss the brothers when they FAIL as they are following the law. as they try to please God in their FLesh..

    although learning what these sins are, how to avoid them, and discussing there innumerable nuances with our brothers is OK, I guess. woulndt you say?

    Me2
     
    #45 Me2, Jul 14, 2003
  6. Sola-Scriptura

    Sola-Scriptura New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2003
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mark,
    Now we have out in the open the plain reason for your anger! By your own admission, all Calvinists are heretics and headed for Hell. Oh, so I was the one who was misaken, thinking that this was a forum for Christians to discuss theology. You should have re-directed me to the Calvinist/Arminian, (oops, pardon me)Heretic/Arminian forum.
    I thought we were saved by grace through faith alone, but glad you helped me realize that is not enough. We must publicly renounce our heretical theological beliefs upon peril of death, and burn our books in the street. (I guess that means my Bible).
    By the way, I have never, ever heard a Calvinist say that Arminians were not saved. Where did you drag that one up. In fact, I have never heard a godly Arminian ever say that Calvinists were not saved.
     
    #46 Sola-Scriptura, Jul 14, 2003
  7. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bible-Only,

    Let's get one thing clear - I did say you were a heretic but I did not say you were headed for hell. If you have ever trusted Christ for salvation you are saved, though you may have subsequently fallen into some heresy. By the same token, if a sodomite ever trusted Christ, he is saved, though he may have subsequently fallen into the sin of sodomy.

    Now isn't this fancy, you implied in your previous post that a man who does not renounce sodomy could not possibly be a regenerate person but now you ridicule the idea that a man must renounce his heresies in order to be saved. And yet Paul clearly put heresy and sodomy down as "works of the flesh."

    But I didn't say that a man had to renounce all his heresies or renounce sodomy to be saved. What I believe about that matter is what I said above, that if a man ever trusted Christ for salvation he is saved. Period.

    Neither did I say you aren't saved because you are a heretic anymore than I would say David wasn't saved because he was an adulterer and murderer or Peter wasn't saved because he was a cursing, lying, Christ denying hypocrite.

    I did not say that you said "Arminians" weren't saved. I said that to be consistent with your assertion that to deny Calvinism is to deny the "doctrines of grace" you must put non-Calvinists in the same cesspool as sodomites.

    Here is the plain logic of the matter:

    1. Calvinists teach that to believe the "doctrines of grace" a man must believe in unconditional election.

    2. To deny the "doctrines of grace" must surely make a man a heretic.

    3. Heresy is a work of the flesh.

    4. Sodomy is a work of the flesh.

    5. Therefore, to be a non-Calvinist is to be in the same category as a sodomite (or adulterer, liar, fornicator, idolater, etc.)....if, that is, Calvinism constitutes the "doctrines of grace."

    But if Calvinism is not the truth - which it is not - then it is a lie and a heresy, and every lie and heresy is a work of the flesh, just as is sodomy. Therefore the word of God plops Calvinism right into the same cesspool of sin as sodomy - or any other work of the flesh.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
    #47 Mark Osgatharp, Jul 14, 2003
  8. Sola-Scriptura

    Sola-Scriptura New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2003
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    Since when is heresy not damnable?

    Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;
    11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

    2 Peter 2:1
    But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    Galatians 5
    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    You said that "to deny the doctrines of grace must surely make a man a heretic". Why do you continue to think that any Calvinist would label you a heretic for not believing in unconditional election, or Total Depravity, or Perseverance or whatever! If you deny the Gospel, that's one thing. But to disagree with me about HOW you were saved does not mean that you are NOT saved! I don't think that, so why would I have ever asserted such nonsense.
    A heretic is not someone who disagrees with some point of Soteriology, or Eschatology, or whatever. A heretic is someone who denies Jesus Christ is who He is, who denies the gospel. This is always damnable. It is a work of the flesh, but the scripture says that we are not IN the flesh if the Spirit of God lives in us. Please don't tell me you think there are saved heretics, now. If you are saying that anyone who believes ONE thing that is not the perfect truth from God, or they are heretics, then you misunderstand heresy. Only cults teach that everything they believe is without error. We teach that scripture is without error, but we as people can indeed misunderstand God's truth. Isn't that what this board is all about? Iron sharpening iron?
     
    #48 Sola-Scriptura, Jul 14, 2003
  9. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Heresy is damnable, just as is every other sin. But believers will be delivered from all sin in the end and therefore will not be eternally damned by any.

    This is the passage I quoted in my other post and it proves that heresy is classed with every other sin. If you use it to say that all heretics are damned to hell, you must also use it to say that everyone who commits any of these sins is damned to hell. In which case you are teaching salvation by abstinance from sin.

    Are you prepared to assert that you, or any other regnerate man, never commit any of these "works of the flesh"?

    .

    I don't think Calvinists label me a heretic for not believing in unconditional election. I know they don't because if they did they would have to:

    a. Get out of the fellowship of the churches they are in where Calvinism is not the doctrine taught.

    b. Build their own churches at their own sacrifice.

    c. Would have to label all non-Calvinist churches as heretical churches and theus bear the scorn of the world for being cultic and exclusivistic in doctrine.

    Notwithstanding, Calvinists do tell me I deny "the doctrines of grace" and when a man tells me that I don't believe the "DOCTRINES OF GRACE" - I will say he has de facto called me a heretic whether he admits it or not.

    Mark Osgatharp

    P.S.

    By which comment you demonstrate that in addition to not understanding the doctrine of salvation, you haven't even bothered to find out the meaning of the simple Proverb, "Iron sharpeneth iron."
     
    #49 Mark Osgatharp, Jul 14, 2003
  10. Kiffin

    Kiffin New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2001
    Messages:
    2,191
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, the reason we do not view you as a heretic is because you appear to be Trinitarian in your theology and believe the Gospel. The Gospel is basically that Christ died for sinners and He is the resurrected living Lord and that repent, and believe on Him and you will be saved.

    That is because the term "DOCTRINES OF GRACE" is synomous with TULIP. If we viewed you as a heretic then we would not consider you a Christian. Both Calvinists and Non Calvinists are often guilty of slandering the brethern by misrepresenting the beliefs of the others in debate. Calvinism (as described by the Canons of Dort) in my opinion is the best explanation of the entire Gospel message outside Holy Scripture but Calvinism is a interpretation (and I believe the correct one [​IMG] ). Free Will theology is a poor explanation of the entire Gospel message BUT both Calvinism and Arminianism and Freewillers have the Gospel.
     
    #50 Kiffin, Jul 14, 2003
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 3 of 3
Loading...