God in three persons...Blessed Trinity?

Amen Wells!!!!!

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1 John 5:7
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was doing some research the other day and is anyone here aware that this verse does not appear in the earliest manuscripts? I read this in a commentary, and then found the same notation was made in the NIV version.

Granted, I still believe in the trinity, but this seems to be a favored verse by some and it wasn't even in the original texts!! It just took me by surprise!

~Lorelei

 

Yes,

I also have a problem with the NIV when it comes to 1 John 5:7 it seems to denounce the trinity.

I am a KJV only person and don't own a NIV but I had read it in the past.

I am so glad that the God-Head exisits in three persons.
God the Father, God the Son, and God the Sirit.
Jesus is not just a man and the Holy Spirit is not just an attitude.

If you have an NIV Bible could you quote me what 1 John 5:7 says there. Also tell me what you think if you think it denies the trinity.

Thank you

Cyndi

 

Lorelei, what commentary are you referring to? Thanks!

Kathy
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The commentary I am referring to is "The Daily Study Bible - The Letters of John and Jude" by Barclay. First addition was written in 1958, the addition I have was 1960.

According to Barclay "it does not occur in any Greek manuscript earlier then the 14th century. The great manuscripts belong to the 3rd and 4th centuries, and it occurs in none of them."

Please know that I DO believe in the trinity! Even if this verse was not in the original texts, there are still MANY verses that support the doctrine. The commentary even states that "There is, of course nothing wrong with it; but modern scholarship has made it quite certain that John did not write it".

Baptist Mom,
The NIV reads 1 John 5:7 "For there are three that testify"
The footnote is added in to explain this.
"Late MSS of the Vulgate add in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth:"

So in context this is how it reads in the NIV.
1 John 5:7 "For there are three that testify:
8 the[1] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement"
(1 John 5:7 basically omitted with the footnote explanation above)

It doesn't denounce the trinity, it just leaves out this verse because it wasn't in the earlier manuscripts.

I also use the KJV for most of my Bible study, but I also use the NIV and interlinear and other translations to see what exactly it meant. My 16th century English is a bit rusty, but my Greek is downright pure rust.

I hope that clarifies things. Anyone else have any info on this?

~Lorelei

 

I disagree with this statement that Lorelei made that the NIV does not denounce the trinity.

The KJ in the original text shows that the trinity is true and is in the Word of God.

But I have no desire to get into a debate over this.

Cyndi

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baptist Mom:
I disagree with this statement that Lorelei made that the NIV does not denounce the trinity.

The KJ in the original text shows that the trinity is true and is in the Word of God.

But I have no desire to get into a debate over this.

Cyndi<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cyndi,

Let me make a suggestion. If you don't want a debate and you don't want negative posts, then don't post anything at all. Don't tell the world I am wrong, offer no evidence to support your argument then claim to not want to discuss it further. I am sorry that my lack of intelligence isn't worth your time.


If anyone else has any info on this, please let me know. Or should I ask in the versions forum?

~Lorelei

 

&lt; The KJ in the original text shows that the trinity is true and is in the Word of God &gt;

"KJ in the original text?" If the KJV was good enough for Paul, it's good enough for you-- right?

Do you really thing the RCC would not have selected-- or changed-- their Vulgate to read "The Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit" from "The Spirit, the water, and the blood?"


&lt; But I have no desire to get into a debate over this. &gt;

You already did, and quite voluntarily.

 

1 John 5:7 (The Johannine Comma) exists only in a few late Greek mss.
It does however exist in the Old Itala translation in mss which date back to the third century.
We have documents in which the Comma was quoted as scripture by the early church fathers as early as the year 250AD.

HankD

[ August 04, 2001: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

Oh my you people have alot of hostility.

My purpose is just to honor and glorify the Lord not to be putting others down.

All I said is that I disagreed and I am not going to discuss it because obviously there is not a spirit here to listen what others say just attack.

It saddens me to hear Christians attack one another and I am not here to attack anyone. I know the Lord would not be please in this at all.

I just wonder one thing do you treat your other brothers and sisters in Christ who you worship with the same way. When they disagree with you and choose leave it like that instead of arguing you attack them.

I am very sorry if I offended you in any way and if I have please come to me and I would like to apologize and I ask that you forgive me. But I know the Lord is not pleased with these kind of actions of putting others down.

Ephesians 4:29
Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

I just chose not debate because I disagreed and I did not want to start any argument. My desire is to please the Lord in edifying and I suggest you do the same because that is what pleases the Lord.

I am not coming back to this post because I can see the direction it is going in. I don't want to be part of this kind of behavior. So feel free to talk among yourselves.

Just be careful not to give place to the devil.

I am sure after I post this you will have lots of things to say about me but I choose not look at things that don't honor the Lord and this post is not honoring the Lord as far as I can see.

[ August 04, 2001: Message edited by: Baptist Mom ]

 

Baptist Mom,

If you wish to discredit the NIV, would suggest you look elsewhere. It's a hard sell to knock the NIV for not sticking with the erroneous addition of F,S,& HG (Johannine Comma) included in the KJV.

As stated in a previous thread, this Comma was most likely a scribe's marginal note that got added as original text later on. It does not appear in the earlier manuscripts. To say that the NIV is anti-trinity because it doesn't include something where it doesn't belong in the first place is silly.

 

Thanks everyone for responding. I think I will start a thread in the Bible Versions/Translations forum. Please come and join in that conversation if you have some information on this. I have not clue as to what transcripts are valid etc. I don't want to base my belief off one commentary, I will need LOTS Of help in understanding all of this!!!!

I see now that to "figure" out why it is in the KJV and not the NIV will make this an entirely different topic, so off to the new forum I go!!

Joseph,

Thanks again for starting this thread. I have enjoyed all the input I have gained from it. There are verses here that were familiar and some newer ones as well. I think it is vital that we always be able to back up our beliefs in the Word of God and this thread has helped me tremendously in that regard!

~Lorelei

 

J:

Still smarting from your last whopping? You must be to have posted something about me you know to be a boldfaced lie, and so long after our first debate.

Jesus Christ IS God. He is NOT the Father. He exits eternally as the Only Begotten of the Father.

Nothing in that statement denies the Trinity. It is you who deny the Trinity.

But I'd be tickled pink to go another round with you.

Theo

[ August 06, 2001: Message edited by: Theopolitan ]

 

Amen Theo!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for you post.

 

J:

Thank you for posting the link to our previous discussion. Now folks can see the context in which my statement was made and why your "response" is completely inane.

Explain your view of God in three Persons. Do you believe these Persons to be separate and distinct Persons, or do you believe in essentially one Person who reveals Himself sometimes as the Son and at other times as the Father or the Holy Ghost in the same way that one man can be a son and a father and a husband?

Do you equate "create" with "beget?"

[ August 06, 2001: Message edited by: Theopolitan ]

 

John 3:12
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Perhaps we will never FULLY understand the concept of God in three persons. It is not possible for us to be three in one in the sense that the Godhead is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, therefore, we can't "relate". It is just another facet of our Heavenly Father that makes him omnicient and almighty. Just my opinion

Kathy
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