God is a God of Reason: Why Calvinism Fails

[Dave G]

Here is the statement of faith from the National Association of Free Will Baptists, people can read it and decide for themselves if it agrees with the plain meaning of scripture, especially regarding the essentials of salvation:

See my post immediately above, HD.

If a person rejects God's words, they are not of God.
It doesn't matter where they start out in life or what "denomination" they are part of...

What matters is whether or not the Lord got a hold of them through His words, and the power of His Spirit.
It matters if they were "called", and whether or not they were/are born again.

See the first half of Romans 8.

 

[Humble Disciple]

If a person rejects God's words, they are not of God.

Bearing False Witness is a Sin, A Warning of God's Judgment

Here is the statement of faith from the National Association of Free Will Baptists, people can read it and decide for themselves if it agrees with the plain meaning of scripture, especially regarding the essentials of salvation:

What We Believe – National Association of Free Will Baptists, Inc

While Calvinists are indeed our brothers and sisters in Christ, Calvinism is not the only legitimate interpretation of scripture, and accepting or rejecting it has nothing to do with our salvation.

"In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity."

Ecclesiastes 7:18
It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.

1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

 

[Dave G]

" Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:43-47 ).

If one is of God, they will hear His words.
It's that simple, my friend.

 

[Silverhair]

The scripture teaches man is naturally dead to God, Spiritually dead !

I fully agree. Man is spiritually dead that is why we need the grace of God before and after we believe if we are to be saved.

Eph_2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; {Prevenient Grace} grace before

Rom_5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. {Saving Grace}

 

[Humble Disciple]

" Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:43-47 ).

If we are created in the image of God, then we should be able to use our God-given ability to reason and read the scriptures for ourselves to draw our own conclusions, rather than reading a Calvinist framework into them.

Acts 17:11
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Whether one is a Molinist, open theist, Calvinist, Arminian, etc. has nothing to do, whatsoever, with the essentials of Christian salvation.

"In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity."

Ecclesiastes 7:18
It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.

1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

Sola scriptura and sola Christus, NOT Sola Calvinism.

 

[Humble Disciple]

I fully agree. Man is spiritually dead that is why we need the grace of God before and after we believe if we are to be saved.

Eph_2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; {Prevenient Grace} grace before

Rom_5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. {Saving Grace}

Exactly. The Bible teaches we are saved by faith, not by unconditional election. Believing or disbelieving in unconditional election has nothing to do with the essentials of salvation.

John Calvin: Not a Calvinist

 

[Dave G]

If we are created in the image of God, then we should be able to use our God-given ability to reason and read the scriptures for ourselves to draw our own conclusions, rather than reading a Calvinist framework into them.

But we're not able.
In fact, we are dead-set against Him and His ways, even from birth ( Psalms 58:3 ).

See Romans 1, Romans 2, Romans 3, 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27, and Romans 8.

It seems that instead of believing God's words, you're falling back on your own reasoning,
which the Lord tells His people not to do ( Proverbs 3:5-7 ).

Sola scriptura and sola Christus, NOT Sola Calvinism.

Amen.

Those same Scriptures and that same Jesus Christ tells us how and why a person is saved...
That Gospel is what you call, "Calvinism", HD, and something His word calls "election", "predestination", "calling", "justification" and "glorification"..
No one can gain eternal life by their own efforts.

The Lord does it all, and we as the reciptients of His unmerited gifts were completely unaware of them until He told us through the preaching of His word.

That is what makes it all of grace and none of works.

 

[Dave G]

Exactly. The Bible teaches we are saved by faith, not by unconditional election.

The Bible teaches we are saved through faith, not by it ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ).
A person's faith does not save them, in the eternal sense.

That privilege belongs to the Lord, and He has mercy and compassion on whom He wills ( Romans 9:4-18).
He is the one who makes vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath.
It's all in Romans 9, HD.

Have you read it?

That is where I learned of why anyone is saved.
I didn't have to consult the writings of John Calvin or anyone else...
I simply picked up His Book and did what the Lord told me to in 1 Peter 2:2 and 2 Timothy 2:15.

That's where I found all the answers, not in "Calvin's Institutes".

Believing or disbelieving in unconditional election has nothing to do with the essentials of salvation.

There are no "essentials of salvation", and there is no "formula" that a person can follow to gain God's favor, HD.

One is either a child of God, or a child of the devil;
Saved or perishing;
Believer or unbeliever;
Written in the Book of Life or not written.
There is no in-between.

One either believes all of God's word, as it is written, or they only believe the parts they like and reject the rest.
One either has the Spirit who reveals His truth to us, or one does not.

Finally,
As rebellious sinners who are unworthy of His grace, we cannot and do not make our own destiny.
He decides who to save and who to cast into the Lake of Fire for our iniquities, and we do not have any say in the matter.


Good evening to you.

 

[Humble Disciple]

But we're not able.
In fact, we are dead-set against Him and His ways, even from birth ( Psalms 58:3 ).

Free Will is Taught in the Bible...

Jeremiah 18: Romans 9 De-Calvinized

Does the Bible teach Original Sin?

Free Will Baptists on Predestination & Election

It's kind of strange when Baptists, who reject the Catholic doctrine of baptismal regeneration, insist upon the Catholic doctrine of original sin on which it hinges.

Whether one is a Molinist, open theist, Calvinist, Arminian, etc. has nothing to do, whatsoever, with the essentials of Christian salvation.

"In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity."

Ecclesiastes 7:18
It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.

1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

The main difference between Calvinists and non-Calvinists is not whether God's enabling grace is necessary to repent and believe the Gospel, but whether this enabling grace is given to all people equally or just a select few:

John 6:44 as an example of particular irresistible “drawing”, Arminians will often quickly refer to John 12:32 to demonstrate that the drawing of John 6:44 cannot be a reference to regeneration. The reason is that Jesus states in Jn. 12:32 that he will “draw all men” to himself. The same Greek word is used here as in Jn. 6:44. The implication is that if Jesus was speaking of irresistible regeneration in John 6:44, then his statement in Jn. 12:32 would lead to the conclusion that Christ will irresistibly regenerate all men. This would be a plain case of universalism (the teaching that all will be saved), a teaching that both Calvinists and Arminians reject (Luke 13:24)...

I have no problem with their consideration of John 12:20-22, nor with their statement that he includes the Greeks in “all men”. The part I take issue with is their conclusion that when Jesus says “all men” he means only “all without distinction” or “all kinds of people”. This is a conclusion that Peterson and Williams have read into the passage based on the necessities of their Calvinist theology. There is no exegetical justification for reading “all men” as “some men” from among “all men” in this passage. It makes just as much sense to say that because Jesus’ drawing power would go out to “all men” (without exception), that the Gentiles of Jn. 12:20-22 could then rest assured that they too would have access to the gift of God’s salvation. To say that the presence of Greeks in vss. 20-22 necessitates that Jn. 12:32 must be understood in a restrictive sense is a huge leap in logic, and a conclusion which the un-biased reader of Scripture would likely never come to on his or her own.
Is The Drawing of John 12:32 Universal or Particular?

 

[Brightfame52]

I fully agree. Man is spiritually dead that is why we need the grace of God before and after we believe if we are to be saved.

Eph_2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; {Prevenient Grace} grace before

Rom_5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. {Saving Grace}

Since man is dead, he needs for the Grace of God to make him alive, thats what Grace does Eph 2:5
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

The word quickened means made alive. Until then man is dead in sin to God.

 

[Silverhair]

Back to the Hippie avatar...
Perhaps you are Jesse Morrel. lol.

All of these anti-Cals sites are useless.

Why would you say that unless you also mean that all the pro cal sites are useless also.
If you are going to learn anything about what you believe then you need to understand what people are saying against what you believe.
Besides you just may learn something.

 

[Silverhair]

humbled



Thats true, thats why God doesnt reason with the dead, see man by nature is dead to God, he died to God in Adam, and so there is no reasoning with the dead. By nature are minds are blinded 2 Cor 3:14

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

2 Cor 4:4

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Mans mental reasoning is void of Spiritual Life and so its reasoning is under the power of sin and death.

Brightfame52 so I see that you do not like what God said in Isa_1:18. Was He being insincere when He said that they should reason together? No He was not He gave then choices obey or rebel Isa 1:19-20. Their future would be determined by their choices.

You used 2 Cor 3:14 as a proof text but once again you fail to look at context. The blindness was that they would not believe what was written in the OT regarding Christ Jesus. It does not say they could not it says the would not see the truth.

 

[Silverhair]

Back to the ole "its not fair" mantra !

And what mantra are you back to "trust what calvin said even when it does not comport with scripture" or "you don't understand calvinism". How many others do you use to defend your calvinism?

 

[Brightfame52]

Brightfame52 so I see that you do not like what God said in Isa_1:18. Was He being insincere when He said that they should reason together? No He was not He gave then choices obey or rebel Isa 1:19-20. Their future would be determined by their choices.

You used 2 Cor 3:14 as a proof text but once again you fail to look at context. The blindness was that they would not believe what was written in the OT regarding Christ Jesus. It does not say they could not it says the would not see the truth.

That verse is fine Isa 1:18, but im saying a spiritually dead sinner cant reason spiritually.. His foolish mind and heart is blinded, darkened, hes spiritually ignorant.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

As the OP is now perma-banned, this thread is now closed.