God is absolute.

[canadyjd]

Here's how it works. one sinful lump of humanity. God is no respecter of persons. So he arbitrarily selects a portion to display the glory of His wrath through. From the rest of the same sinful lump, He displays the glory of His mercy. If not arbitrarily selected, why did He choose you?

No, God specifically picks a portion of clay to mold for honorable use, and specifically choses another for common use. His acts are deliberate, according to His will. There is nothing arbitrary about it. Nothing that God does is arbitrary.

Once again, scripture tells us God choses according to the kind intention of His will, for His purpose.

We shouldn’t go beyond what scripture says about “why” God choses. We can’t say there is anything special about us in His choice, lest we nullify His grace.

We also shouldn’t, as you are doing, claim God doesn’t act in a deliberate, purposeful manner to bring about salvation to those He chose before the foundation of the world.

peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

No, God specifically picks a portion of clay to mold for honorable use, and specifically choses another for common use. His acts are deliberate, according to His will. There is nothing arbitrary about it. Nothing that God does is arbitrary.

Once again, scripture tells us God choses according to the kind intention of His will, for His purpose.

We shouldn’t go beyond what scripture says about “why” God choses. We can’t say there is anything special about us in His choice, lest we nullify His grace.

We also shouldn’t, as you are doing, claim God doesn’t act in a deliberate, purposeful manner manner to bring about salvation to those He chose before the foundation of the world.

peace to you

You are cherry-picking Paul. Remember, God hated Esau and loved Jacob before they did either good or bad.

 

[canadyjd]

You are cherry-picking Paul. Remember, God hated Esau and loved Jacob before they did either good or bad.

“Hating” and “loving” are not arbitrary acts.

peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

“Hating” and “loving” are not arbitrary acts.

peace to you

God hates sinners. But His glory is at the highest level when He sets His love on those worthless He selected, paying for their sins in Christ, so He can bless them as though they never sinned. If He saw anything in you worth saving, you would share His glory. But He assures you, the faith He gave you proves you are a vessel of mercy.

 

[canadyjd]

God hates sinners. But His glory is at the highest level when He sets His love on those worthless He selected, paying for their sins in Christ, so He can bless them as though they never sinned. If He saw anything in you worth saving, you would share His glory. But He assures you, the faith He gave you proves you are a vessel of mercy.

So, you ignore my point that “hating” and “loving” are not arbitrary acts (which directly addresses your statement concerning Esau and Jacob) and move to disprove something I never stated (that God saw something in me and based His choice on that).

This is one reason it is impossible to have an intellectually honest conversation with you.

I’ll leave you to it.

peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

So, you ignore my point that “hating” and “loving” are not arbitrary acts (which directly addresses your statement concerning Esau and Jacob) and move to disprove something I never stated (that God saw something in me and based His choice on that).

This is one reason it is impossible to have an intellectually honest conversation with you.

I’ll leave you to it.

peace to you

Esau and Jacob prove God's arbitrary choice in the damnation and the salvation of those He made.

 

[canadyjd]

Esau and Jacob prove God's arbitrary choice in the damnation and the salvation of those He made.

Thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

Thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

You should look into this. It's the most precious understanding of God's word I'm glad to share with you.

 

[JonC]

I certainly do. Just trying to share the blessing with you and others.

I do not believe you have considered fully the implications of what you are saying.

You say that there is a lump of people. Ou of this lump God arbitrarily chooses some to fashion as vessels of mercy, these merit no mercy.

BUT in the passage God (the Potter) carefully fashions vessels of wrath out of the same lump.

The logical conclusion is the condemned do not merit condemnation but were arbitrarily chosen as vessels of wrath.

 

[JonC]

If God regarded any of us as something, we would share his glory. Let Him knock us down to where we belong. Our only value is in Christ's blood in the limited atonement sense.

No. That is not what any of us us saying.

We know our righteousness was as "filthy rags".

We are saying your desire to know the mind of God beyond what is revealed in Scripture is inappropriate. There s no need to knock down God by declaring His work in salvation "arbitrary" in order to make sure man remains in his place.

 

[1689Dave]

No. That is not what any of us us saying.

We know our righteousness was as "filthy rags".

We are saying your desire to know the mind of God beyond what is revealed in Scripture is inappropriate. There s no need to knock down God by declaring His work in salvation "arbitrary" in order to make sure man remains in his place.

You are saying if you cannot understand this theme, nobody can. But we are just touching on it. There is a complete study in Supralapsariqnism and Infralapsarian the Reformers knew well that would do us good to grasp.

 

[1689Dave]

I do not believe you have considered fully the implications of what you are saying.

You say that there is a lump of people. Ou of this lump God arbitrarily chooses some to fashion as vessels of mercy, these merit no mercy.

BUT in the passage God (the Potter) carefully fashions vessels of wrath out of the same lump.

The logical conclusion is the condemned do not merit condemnation but were arbitrarily chosen as vessels of wrath.

They merit mercy because Christ paid for their sins. But Universal atonement cannot support this conclusion. Only Limited Atonement can.

 

[canadyjd]

You should look into this. It's the most precious understanding of God's word I'm glad to share with you.

I’m always ready to be convinced to change my mind based on scripture. Your understanding is not biblical, therefore cannot be precious.

peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

I’m always ready to be convinced to change my mind based on scripture. Your understanding is not biblical, therefore cannot be precious.

peace to you

You do not understand these basic topics Protestants held dear.

 

[canadyjd]

You do not understand these basic topics Protestants held dear.

My understanding is just fine, thank you very much.

If you can point to any Protestant scholar that agrees with you that God’s work is arbitrary, please provide the reference.

peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

My understanding is just fine, thank you very much.

If you can point to any Protestant scholar that agrees with you that God’s work is arbitrary, please provide the reference.

peace to you

Why did He save you? A straight answer will settle it.

 

[JonC]

They merit mercy because Christ paid for their sins. But Universal atonement cannot support this conclusion. Only Limited Atonement can.

You believe the saved merit mercy because Christ died for their sins? How is this something we earned????

Your claim was that we do not merit mercy (which was correct), but the logical conclusion to your interpretation of Paul's illustration is the lost do not merit condemnation (which is incorrect).

You are confusing things here....jumping all around. I never challenged limited atonement (that is a strawman on your part).

Calvinists believe limited Atonement correct, but Calvinists do not believe God elected arbitrarily (Calvinism keeps this within the unknowable aspects of God).

 

[JonC]

They merit mercy because Christ paid for their sins. But Universal atonement cannot support this conclusion. Only Limited Atonement can.

Not really (and I am not sure why you being Limited vs Universal Atonement up here).

I, like you, disagree with Calvinism but for different reasons.

You disagree because Calvinism concludes election decreed by God, never arbitrarily but unknowable to man.

My disagreement is stronger because while you reject a portion of Calvinism I reject Calvinism and Arminianism entirely.

The funny thing is we both end up able to agree with the 5 points if we define how we get there.

 

[canadyjd]

Why did He save you? A straight answer will settle it.

I’ve already answered directly, you just can’t or won’t accept the answer.

Give a reference to a Protestant scholar that taught God acts arbitrarily concerning salvation. If you can’t, apologize for misrepresenting your position as being “precious” to, or “held dear”, by Protestants.

peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

You believe the saved merit mercy because Christ died for their sins? How is this something we earned????

Your claim was that we do not merit mercy (which was correct), but the logical conclusion to your interpretation of Paul's illustration is the lost do not merit condemnation (which is incorrect).

You are confusing things here....jumping all around. I never challenged limited atonement (that is a strawman on your part).

Calvinists believe limited Atonement correct, but Calvinists do not believe God elected arbitrarily (Calvinism keeps this within the unknowable aspects of God).

In the limited atonement sense, Christ bought us which means are Christ's body. We have Christ's own value imputed to us.

We deserve all that He deserves. Even though we are worthless in Adam.

So God arbitrarily divided the worthless lump of sinners in Adam, arbitrarily assigning some to Salvation in Christ to glorify His mercy. While leaving the rest in Adam's sin to display His wrath.

The beauty of this is, if you are a believer, is that we had nothing to do with our damnation in Adam. Nor did we have anything to do with our salvation in Christ.

Only those who understand the doctrine of limited atonement can understand this. It does not fit with universal atonement.