God is in control but not all events are predetermined.

[Brother Bob]

If you are saying the worse man gets the more it shows how great God is then I will have to agree but man is that really having to look deep to find an answer.

 

[epistemaniac]

all of heaven... God included since He is obviously in heaven, will rejoice over those in Hell.... Rev 18:20, 19:1-4 ESV Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, for God has given judgment for you against her! After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, crying out, "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, (2) for his judgments are true and just; for he has judged the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her immorality, and has avenged on her the blood of his servants." (3) Once more they cried out, "Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up forever and ever." (4) And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who was seated on the throne, saying, "Amen. Hallelujah!"

blessings,
Ken

 

[Brother Bob]

He didn't rejoice because she did it in the first place and that is the question, they rejoiced because he overcame her. The rejoicing is always because His power is above them that do evil. I am sure it saddens God when men sin against him, reminds me of a professor who said that "sin is good".

[ April 29, 2006, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]

 

[epistemaniac]

what is hard for people to grasp, it seems, is that we do not live in a dualistic universe where Jehovah "wins" one time, and then Satan "wins" another, as if there is some great epic battle going on between two equal powers, one good and one evil... like some kind of yin/yang scenario.... that is not what the Christian worldview teaches, it is what some Eastern religions teach, eg the two sides of “the force” in Star Wars etc... Christianity teaches that Satan is a mere created being who never has the ability to overpower and thwart Jehovah's ultimate will, the book of Job goes to great pains to point this out
Job 42:2 esv I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted."

.... thus, none are lost except those God always knew would be lost... Satan never "wins" a victory over God, as if Satan can take one of God's children away from Him!! perish the thought! if this were so, then no one's salvation would ever be secure for who knows, God might be overcome by Satan and he might cheat God out of one of His very own! Or, as if Satan might be smart enough to cause someone to fall in such a way as to surprise and out smart Jehovah, such that a person who God thought would come to him, ends up not quite making it to salvation due to Satan's schemes.....

for God knew, from all eternity who would be His, so when those who are not his pass from this life into judgment, it's nothing that the Lord wasn't already expecting... it wasn't a surprise where God said "darn it, that crafty `ole Satan, he got one over me that time... next time I won't fall for his tricks!" Satan does whatever he does by permission, thats it....

“The central truth which Daniel taught Nebuchadnezzar in chapters 2 and 4, and of which he reminded Belshazzar in chapter 5 (vv. 18–23), and which Nebuchadnezzar acknowledged in chapter 4 (vv. 34–37), and which Darius confessed, in chapter 6 (vv. 25–27), and which was the basis of Daniel’s prayers in chapters 2 and 9, and of his confidence in defying authority in chapters 1 and 6, and of his friends’ confidence in defying authority in chapter 3, and which formed the staple substance of all the disclosures which God made to Daniel in chapters 2, 4, 7, 8, 10, and 11–12, is the truth that “the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men” (4:25; compare 5:21). He knows, and foreknows, all things, and his foreknowledge is foreordination; he, therefore, will have the last word, both in world history and in the destiny of every man; his kingdom and righteousness will triumph in the end, for neither men nor angels shall be able to thwart him.” (J.I. Packer Knowing God )

“The OT presents God the Creator as personal, powerful and purposeful, and assures us that as his power is unlimited, so his purposes are certain of fulfillment (Ps. 33:10f.; Is. 14:27; 43:13; Jb. 9:12; 23:13; Dn. 4:35). He is Lord of every situation, ordering and directing everything towards the end for which he made it (Pr. 16:4), and determining every event, great or small, from the thoughts of kings (Pr. 21:1) and the premeditated words and deeds of all men (Pr. 16:1, 9) to the seemingly random fall of a lot (Pr. 16:33). Nothing that God sets before himself is too hard for him (Gn. 18:14; Je. 32:17); the idea that the organized opposition of man could in any way thwart him is simply absurd (Ps. 2:1-4). Isaiah’s prophecy expands the thought of God’s plan as the decisive factor in history more fully than does any other OT book. Isaiah stresses that God’s purposes are everlasting, that Yahweh planned present and future happenings ‘long ago’, ‘from the beginning’ (cf. Is. 22:11; 37:26; 44:6-8; 46:10f.), and that, just because it is he, and no-one else, who orders all events (Is. 44:7), nothing can prevent the occurrence of the events that he has predicted (Is. 14:24-27; 44:24-45:25; cf. 1 Ki. 22:17-38; Ps. 33:10f.; Pr. 19:21; 21:30). Yahweh’s ability to predict the seemingly incredible things that are going to happen proves his control of history, whereas the inability of the idols to foretell these things shows that they do not control it” (Is. 44:6-8; 45:21; 48:12-14). New Bible Dictionary

blessings,
Ken

 

[Brother Bob]

1 Timothy, chapter 1
"18": This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest wage a good warfare;

2 Corinthians, chapter 10
2": But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.

"3": For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

"4": (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

"5": Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

"6": And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Isaiah, chapter 40
"2": Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins.

1 Peter, chapter 5
"8": Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Revelation, chapter 12
"17": And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Revelation, chapter 11
3": And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

"4": These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

"5": And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

"6": These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

"7": And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Romans, chapter 12
"21": Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.


1 Corinthians, chapter 15

"24": Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

"25": For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

"26": The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

"27": For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

"28": And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


Romans, chapter 12
20": Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

"21": Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

For the rest of us there is a warfare even Jesus said "get behind me satan". There is a warfare between the Spirit and the flesh and there is a warfare between good and evil.

 

[epistemaniac]

there is warfare, I never denied it... these (prayers) are part of the means God uses to accomplish His greater ends.... the point is, Satan never wins in the battle over God... if Satan seems to gain an upper hand, it is only because God has allowed it to happen to further His own greater plans... a la Joseph...
Gen 50:20 esv As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."

blessings,
Ken

 

[Brother Bob]

epistemaniac;
I understand, satan would not exist except God allowed it. God saw man's heart was evil, we still looking for the better land.

 

[doulous]

Originally posted by epistemaniac:
there is warfare, I never denied it... these (prayers) are part of the means God uses to accomplish His greater ends.... the point is, Satan never wins in the battle over God... if Satan seems to gain an upper hand, it is only because God has allowed it to happen to further His own greater plans... a la Joseph...
Gen 50:20 esv As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."

blessings,
Ken

And God gets the glory for it...right?

 

[Brother Bob]

Glory for overcoming yes. Glory because of sin, no.

 

[doulous]

Brother Bob, look at Joshua 7. Give special attention to verse 19. This is the story of the sin of Achan. The story draws to a conclusion when Joshua says to Achar, "Son, give glory to God..." Achan does give glory to God by confessing His sin. God is not pleased with sin, but He is glorified nonetheless. Sin is still evil and antithical to a Holy God, but once again it accenuates that very holiness. This is how God receives glory.

 

[Brother Bob]

Sure he gets Glory out of a confession doulous. I have never argued otherwise. I am saying He don't Glory in sin. Maybe we just running past each other.
To say that is how God receives Glory when someone sins just don't fit in my vocabulory. When one repents or God destroy those that sin, the devil, abominations it brings forth the Glory of God, I have no problem with. I just do not believe that God Glorys in sin and you have never provided me a Scripture to that effect. Sorry friend.

 

[doulous]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Sure he gets Glory out of a confession doulous. I have never argued otherwise. I am saying He don't Glory in sin. Maybe we just running past each other.
To say that is how God receives Glory when someone sins just don't fit in my vocabulory. When one repents or God destroy those that sin, the devil, abominations it brings forth the Glory of God, I have no problem with. I just do not believe that God Glorys in sin and you have never provided me a Scripture to that effect. Sorry friend.

And I never said God glories in sin. I have said (repeatedly) that God receives glory even when men sin. It is not the sin that glorifies God but the fact that He is Holy. Everytime a person sins it makes God's holiness even more apparent.

There is no glory in sin.

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by Benjamin:
epistemaniac,
Well obviously then you would rather play proof text spitting games while throwing out insults instead of clarifying your position and haven’t learned much in your education and 6 years of defending your position about doing it in an edifying manner as I as a humble student had to point out to you we weren't’t going to get anywhere the way we were preceding.

Well I want to support my beliefs with the Scriptures. I am sorry if that bothers you.

You are right that relatively speaking, I haven't learned much in my time of defending my beliefs thus far in my Christian walk. Reading the likes of John Owen, Jonathan Edwards, Francis Turretin etc I realize how little I know, and that, compared to them, I am but a babe in Christ. But I only raised the issue of my past because you seemed to think that your past study meant that you had some corner on the truth. You said things like

I’ve read the Bible many times

and in particular, you said

I have put a lot of thought into theology because of my love of God and the biblical truth within His Word; I guess I could just adopt some man’s doctrine and accept it as truth but that’s not what the wisdom of the Spirit lead Word is leading me to do.

So I wanted you to know that I too have put a lot of thought into theology because of my love of God and the biblical truth within His word..... it would have been nice if you would have stopped here, but then you proceed to insult me by insinuating that I just "adopt some man's doctrine"... so any ire you have gotten from me was provoked by this insult.... so don't complain about any sarcasm etc on my part when you insult me by disparaging my own walk with the Lord, and my studies of His word.

You insinuated my faith as coming from common secular non-biblical beliefs

I truly believe that most of today's church accepts a non-biblical view of free will. This isn't anything particular to you, so please do not take this as an attack on you personally, it's a view I have on the majority of the evangelical church.

for disagreeing with you unjustly

I don't think you disagreed with me unjustly....

and responded to my plea with the arrogance of “lol” and winks at my attempts.

I have not given any more arrogance then you have... you shared your background... I shared some of mine... if you perceive that as arrogance I can only say that that would be hypocritical... as far as my "lol's" and winks... I put them in to try and lighten things up a bit... I apologize if this had the opposite effect.

As for “aseity” I clearly used it in the context of self derived existence and your response was again shamefully rude,

You did not clearly use it in that way, you had said

God through aseity can not learn, He knows all, always has, that would begin to define God’s perfect knowledge in my opinion.

Now if by your saying the above I supposed to think you meant it in the context of the correct definition of aseity, then you are asking me to read your mind. I can only go by what you write, and since you seemed to be very concerned with precision and definition, which is commendable btw, then it was just as important that you be laboring under the correct "theological logic" as you are requiring of me.

for being within your exalted maturity level.

I was not exalting my maturity level, I was merely commenting on my background, just as you had done.

Lastly, my statement about where I stood in my walk was treated with contempt and more uncalled for accusations.

No, I did not treat your walk with contempt... how could merely bringing up my background equal contempt for your background?

I do apologize for my lack of experience concerning dealing with and expressing myself to others in the search for the truth for the mistakes that I have made.

no apology necessary as far as I am concerned....

blessings,
Ken

 

[Brother Bob]

doublous;
Seems to me we agree just running past each other here. I can see your point but this started out rejoicing over repenting and serving him or sinning and serving the devil. I think we agree if I understand right.

 

[doulous]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
doublous;
Seems to me we agree just running past each other here. I can see your point but this started out rejoicing over repenting and serving him or sinning and serving the devil. I think we agree if I understand right.

Amazing how a thread can start on one topic and then change into something else.

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by doulous:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by epistemaniac:
there is warfare, I never denied it... these (prayers) are part of the means God uses to accomplish His greater ends.... the point is, Satan never wins in the battle over God... if Satan seems to gain an upper hand, it is only because God has allowed it to happen to further His own greater plans... a la Joseph...
Gen 50:20 esv As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."

blessings,
Ken

And God gets the glory for it...right? </font>[/QUOTE]yep... some of the best writing I have read on this subject is Jonathan Edwards;
http://www.jonathanedwards.com/sermons/Warnings/wsermons.htm

and of course, John Piper...
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/doc_grace_index.html

blessings,
Ken