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God is in Control?
- Thread starter donnA
- Start date
David Mark
New Member
I don't fully agree with that.
Jonah said no to God and Jonah meant it. But God had made a decision to use Jonah. God did not just pick someone else because Jonah refused to obey. God made Jonah obey him. God can make me obey too.
The apostle Paul is another example for me. How could Saul ever change, repent or believe on his own? God chose Saul, spoke to him audibly, blinded him and IMHO made him believe. God did whatever it took to get Saul to believe. And we're talking about a man who refers to himself as the Chief of sinners.
Dave
David Mark
New Member
I agree, for the most part.
What man "in his right" mind or with enough common sense would not make a correct choice? If I was 100 percent sure that paradise and pleasures forever more were behind door number 1 and that eternal torment was behind door number 2, what door would I choose? I would have to be ignorant or believe a lie to choose door number 2.
I know of scripture that says that God blinded the eyes of some so they would not believe. To me, it seems that they still had a choice. But they chose poorly and it was God's work. The real mystery to me is, that they still have no excuse for not believing.
You said it above. God gives men common sense. Enough common sense to make the correct decision. The decision that leads to eternal life in Heaven. There was nothing special in me that allows me to say, I deserve it. I have made a good choice, and I continue to make good choices. This is God's faithfulness to me. If God did not or will not intervene in my life, I could not make any good choices.
Dave
yeshua4me2
OK, I have figured out where your analogy falls short (sorry). This might make it better.
You are the king. You love baseball. You know baseball will bring extraordinary pleasure to all who play it. You create people to be baseball lovers. You tell them that if they play anything else but baseball, they will die, and then been tortured forever. They all reject baseball and start playing (yikes) soccer!!
That is OK, because you knew they would reject baseball, that was part of your plan. You knew that if they played soccer, and then learned how great baseball is, they would enjoy it better.
You sent baseball coaches to teach the people the rules of baseball, so they would quit playing soccer, but the people threw rocks at them and kept playing soccer.
That was OK, because that was part of your plan. You wanted them all to know that you have great patience, even with soccer lovers. But your great patience did not mean you were not going to punish them for playing soccer. You are the King, and if you say something, then you have to do it, otherwise you will not be perfect.
So you send your Son to tell them all about baseball. He is the most perfect baseball player, because He is your Son. He told them how great baseball is, and how wicked soccer is. They beat Him and nailed Him to a cross and he dies. That was all part of your plan, because since your Son was perfect, He took the punishment for all the soccer players. You then raise Him from the dead to prove He is your Son. Now, if they will accept Him as their Savior, they too can avoid the punishment. The problem is, no one wants to play baseball!
Now, you have planned since the foundation of the world that Joe would live in your kingdom and play baseball. So, you decide to throw him the ball, and if He catches it, he will be saved from the punishment due to all soccer players.
You plan the date and time (from the foundation of the world.) You bring about all the circumstances in Joe's life that bring him to this moment. As Joe is walking to the soccer field, yet again, you send a messenger to him. The messenger tells him about your Son, and the great sacrifice He made on his (Joe's behalf), at the same time, you send Your Holy Spirit to change Joe's nature from a soccer lover to a baseball lover. Joe instantly sees how repulsive soccer is, and turns around (repenting of all his soccer playing years). At that moment, you throw the ball. Your Holy Spirit lifts his arm and guides the ball into the glove. Joe responds with great joy and gladly recieves your generous gift, and then follows you to your baseball field and joyfully plays forever and ever.
BTW, all analogies fall short. I am cerain this one can be improved upon as well.
OK, I have figured out where your analogy falls short (sorry). This might make it better.
You are the king. You love baseball. You know baseball will bring extraordinary pleasure to all who play it. You create people to be baseball lovers. You tell them that if they play anything else but baseball, they will die, and then been tortured forever. They all reject baseball and start playing (yikes) soccer!!
That is OK, because you knew they would reject baseball, that was part of your plan. You knew that if they played soccer, and then learned how great baseball is, they would enjoy it better.
You sent baseball coaches to teach the people the rules of baseball, so they would quit playing soccer, but the people threw rocks at them and kept playing soccer.
That was OK, because that was part of your plan. You wanted them all to know that you have great patience, even with soccer lovers. But your great patience did not mean you were not going to punish them for playing soccer. You are the King, and if you say something, then you have to do it, otherwise you will not be perfect.
So you send your Son to tell them all about baseball. He is the most perfect baseball player, because He is your Son. He told them how great baseball is, and how wicked soccer is. They beat Him and nailed Him to a cross and he dies. That was all part of your plan, because since your Son was perfect, He took the punishment for all the soccer players. You then raise Him from the dead to prove He is your Son. Now, if they will accept Him as their Savior, they too can avoid the punishment. The problem is, no one wants to play baseball!
Now, you have planned since the foundation of the world that Joe would live in your kingdom and play baseball. So, you decide to throw him the ball, and if He catches it, he will be saved from the punishment due to all soccer players.
You plan the date and time (from the foundation of the world.) You bring about all the circumstances in Joe's life that bring him to this moment. As Joe is walking to the soccer field, yet again, you send a messenger to him. The messenger tells him about your Son, and the great sacrifice He made on his (Joe's behalf), at the same time, you send Your Holy Spirit to change Joe's nature from a soccer lover to a baseball lover. Joe instantly sees how repulsive soccer is, and turns around (repenting of all his soccer playing years). At that moment, you throw the ball. Your Holy Spirit lifts his arm and guides the ball into the glove. Joe responds with great joy and gladly recieves your generous gift, and then follows you to your baseball field and joyfully plays forever and ever.
BTW, all analogies fall short. I am cerain this one can be improved upon as well.
yeshua4me2
New Member
wow that was great....i was only tring to point out that something can be predestined and "freely" chosen. the person who catches the ball freely chose to do so, but did he. the conditioning he recieved before prepared the way for him to catch the ball. everyone, well just about, will ifshown a ball and a little tossing motion is showed to that person, most often they will catch it. (rather than letting it hit them in the face).
a friend told me that the "choice" to choose Jesus is like choosing between and icecream sunday and a bullet in the brain. seems quite a simple choice, but in reality the room is dark and you can't see the gun or the ice cream. and unless you choose the ice cream the gun will automaticlly go off and kill you. but since the room is dark no one believes you, then you turn on the light and they see what trouble they are in because of the gun, and the icecream will disappear into their mouths.
God can take all credit for salvation because he turn on our light so that we can see the danger in front of us. what credit do we deserve for choosing the obvious, none anyone would choose the same if they had seen what you saw
thankyou and God Bless
a friend told me that the "choice" to choose Jesus is like choosing between and icecream sunday and a bullet in the brain. seems quite a simple choice, but in reality the room is dark and you can't see the gun or the ice cream. and unless you choose the ice cream the gun will automaticlly go off and kill you. but since the room is dark no one believes you, then you turn on the light and they see what trouble they are in because of the gun, and the icecream will disappear into their mouths.
God can take all credit for salvation because he turn on our light so that we can see the danger in front of us. what credit do we deserve for choosing the obvious, none anyone would choose the same if they had seen what you saw
thankyou and God Bless