Do you agree with this statement?
“God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him.”
Why or why not?
“God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him.”
Why or why not?
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God Is Most Glorified When...
- Thread starter InTheLight
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Greektim
Well-Known Member
If you read my siggie, then you'll know.
I'm sorry, I'm not making the connection. Could you elaborate?
Greektim
Well-Known Member
Desiring God, where Piper's schtick is elaborated and the phrase you quoted is vindicated, is called Christian Hedonism.
In other words... I'm all in on this one.
OK, got it.
At first glance it sounds like a wonderful axiom, but there are Biblical examples that seem to contradict it. Job comes to mind. The apostle Paul.
I also wonder about describing our relationship with God as being satisfying. Matthew 10:22 comes to mind:
And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved
At first glance it sounds like a wonderful axiom, but there are Biblical examples that seem to contradict it. Job comes to mind. The apostle Paul.
I also wonder about describing our relationship with God as being satisfying. Matthew 10:22 comes to mind:
And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved
Greektim
Well-Known Member
I just wonder if you know what Piper means?
Even persecution is a delight when your delight is in God... the greatest "thing" there is thus the greatest delight to have. No better joy than joy in God. God giving himself as a gift means that the best way to glorify the gift and the giver (the same in this case) is to enjoy that gift.
I suppose I don't know what he means.
I think about Paul in various prisons for what, 5 years? A couple of years in a row in Rome. The best church planter in history is basically shut off from his calling and mission. Paul might have been satisfied in God but how was God glorified in Paul not evangelizing the lost?
Thousand Hills
Active Member
Yes, what a great testimony to those he encountered, and the churches he planted, etc. Despite what we might see as the best scenario/situation for Paul to be in (or ourselves some day), God was still giving the increase.
Paul was certainly not shut off from God's calling! God was glorified even when Paul was in chains --perhaps magnified in those circumstances. Besides, Paul had liberties as a prisoner. He was able to get out and about. He wasn't locked up all the time.
Do you think John Bunyan was shut off from his calling and mission in the Bedford jail all those years? No way. God was singularly glorified in J.B's privations.
I would tend to agree but would rather it read:
“God is most glorified in us when he works out his will in our surrendered lives.”
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Nothing against you Greektim but I hated Pipers book, Desiring God, and his phrase "Christian Hedonism".
I followed his thoughts and could bend my mind to understanding the idea, but in my mind, the two go together as smoothly as "'holy prostitution".
Rob
Greektim
Well-Known Member
Then that is not agreement.
Or if you understand your surrender to be qualified by utter joy and desire fulfilled in God, then yes.
You think the terms "Christian Hedonism" doesn't go together or the concepts of desiring God doesn't go together?
I think he is spot on by refining the catechism "the chief end of man is to glorify God by enjoying him forever."
I've been reading Edwards lately, which Piper admits influenced his thinking. But Edwards put things in such a way as to make it uncontestable, at least to me.
Absolutely not!! The deceived can be satisfied in what they think is "in him" and be lost and on their way to hell. It is not our satisfaction with him but His satisfaction with us, and the ONLY WAY He is satisfied with us is when it is "God that worketh in us BOTH to WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure." God working in and through us does not always bring us satisfaction as some things are "hard" to bear even though they are right and glorifying to God. For example, the death of a loved one. By God's grace you may respond to that death in a way that glorifies God but is certainly not satisfying to you.
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Greektim
Well-Known Member
So God is most glorified in us when he is most satisfied in us?
Self help, anyone?
I think you miss the point. When we are most satisfied in God (i.e. God is our greatest treasure; if all we have is God we have all we need) then God has worked in us both to will and to do his good pleasure. The greatest expression of glory is delight or pleasure or satisfaction in someone. When you give a gift to your child, the "thank you" is not the proof of thanks but the pleasure in the gift... the enjoyment... that the child plays with it with utter, sheer delight. God has given the greatest gift in the universe: the gift of himself. When we delight ourselves in the Lord (Ps 37:4; a command mind you), we are expressing in the greatest way supreme praise to the supreme God. There is no higher expression of praise than delight. Therefore, God is most highly glorified in us when we are most filled with joy and express that in delight in him.
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The OP did not say that. What it said is "when WE ARE most SATISFIED in him."
The way this reads is about OUR SATISFACTION in him rather than HIS SATISFACTION in him as you interpret rather than quote it.
Yes, God is most satisfied in us when His will is realized in us (philip. 2:13). Our joy is the consequence not the cause of His satisfaction in us.
If your paraphrase is what was intended, then of course I would not have responded as I did.
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Greektim
Well-Known Member
Ok... I changed the actual quotation to match your conclusion. That is why I phrased it as a question. According to what you are saying, God is most glorified in us when he is most satisfied in us. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that is what you are asserting.
I know the real quotation and believe it whole-heartedly. The highest expression of praise we can give to God is when our delight is in him as our supreme delight. When we desire God above all else, that is when God is most glorified in our lives.
And that is what Christian hedonism is all about. We are creatures of desire. To deny that is to deny our humanity. After all, God is a God of desire. He desires his own glory as the greatest and last end of everything. When we match that desire, the glory of God, we best express that in our satisfaction or treasuring of God.
No, I spelled out my conclusion in no uncertain terms. God is more glorified in us when His will is being carried out in our lives as to come short of that, is to come short of the glory of God, and to come short of the glory of God cannot provide TRUE satisfaction in the absolute since "in him" although it may achieve that from our perspective "in him." Is not the essence of Philippians 2:13 that God is glorified and we are truly satisfied in him when His will is worked out according to His good pleasure? Our satisfaction in him may or may not glorify or satisfy God. Our satisfaction is beside the point. The JW is satisfied in him as the JW perceives him and percieves what glorifies Him.
But He is not satisifed in us except His own will is being carried out in us - that is His glory. To "come short of the glory" of God is sin. Hence, the opposite of that is not coming short of the glory of God and that occurs only as He carries out His will in us, by His sinless Spirit through our sinless new created inward man which is created "in righteousness and TRUE holiness." That is when He is glorified IN US and that is when He is SATISIFIED in us and we are TRUELY satisfied in him..
"God is most glorified in us, when His will is satisfied through us" It has nothing to do with what "we can give" but what God works in us to give himself glory. We can give NOTHING that glorifies God that does not originate by His power in and through us, and in that God is most satisfied with - Philip. 2:13.
"God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him.”
The whole issue as I see it is between who is being satisfied and what it is that glorifies, as that determines whether or not He is really glorified? Our satisfaction in Him may or may not satisfy or glorify Him.
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Greektim
Well-Known Member
I think part of the confusion is over the word "satisfied" or satisfaction. Piper is meaning it in the sense of pleasure or fulfillment. God is most glorified in us when we find our truest fulfillment or complete and utter joy in God.
I understand his point but disagree. Our "joy in God" means nothing in regard to glorifying God, unless you are defining "joy" to be consequential of God's will being satisfied in our lives.