God Is Most Glorified When...

[plain_n_simple]

When a believer heals the sick, Jesus is glorified. The Holy Ghost causes a physical manifestation through the hands of the faithful, into the blind persons eyes, restoring eyesight. When a healing is witnessed, it becomes obvious to the observer that the believer could not of done this on his own. It can only be Jesus. He is glorified even without a word. The believer cannot be glorified because he cannot do a miracle, but thanks Jesus. This is glorifying Jesus as He instructed us in His commands.

 

[The Biblicist]

When a believer heals the sick, Jesus is glorified. The Holy Ghost causes a physical manifestation through the hands of the faithful, into the blind persons eyes, restoring eyesight. When a healing is witnessed, it becomes obvious to the observer that the believer could not of done this on his own. It can only be Jesus. He is glorified even without a word. The believer cannot be glorified because he cannot do a miracle, but thanks Jesus. This is glorifying Jesus as He instructed us in His commands.

Hindu god men heal the sick. The devil heals the sick (2 Thes. 2:9). Jesus predicts an apostate Christian miracle movement in the last days will heal the sick (Mt. 24:24-25). DEAD Catholics make sainthood by healing the sick!

 

[plain_n_simple]

Different signs and wonders. It says nothing about Satan coming to heal the sick, but to kill steal and destroy. Satan does not oppose himself, he does not bring sickness to cure it. The very motivation to heal the sick is out of love.

 

[The Biblicist]

Different signs and wonders. It says nothing about Satan coming to heal the sick, but to kill steal and destroy. Satan does not oppose himself, he does not bring sickness to cure it. The very motivation to heal the sick is out of love.

There are documented cases of Hindu god men healing their followers. The Bible most certainly does attribute the very same kind of apostolic "miracles" to Satan and his followers (2 Thes. 2:9). The Roman Catholics claim documentation for DEAD Catholics healing living Catholics. You simply do not know what you are talking about.

 

[plain_n_simple]

It says nothing about healing the sick. You are presuming signs and wonders done by Satan are the same as the signs and wonders done by Christ.

 

[The Biblicist]

It says nothing about healing the sick. You are presuming signs and wonders done by Satan are the same as the signs and wonders done by Christ.

No presumption at all because the very same exact Greek terms used to describe both the "miracles, signs and wonders" performed by Christ and the Apostles is used to describe what they do. You are the one guilty of presuming the contrary.

Second, Deuteronomy 13:1-5 explicitly states that a FALSE prophet can perform real wonders, and predict future events, and yet still is a FALSE prophet when their teaching contradicts God's Word.

Third, those condemned to hell claimed to "cast out demons" and Christ did not deny it (Mt. 7:22-23). Judas performed the same miracles as the other apostles and yet Christ using the present tense said he was a "devil" (Jn. 6:70) and was never a true believer from the beginning (Jn. 6:64).

Fourth, the "miracles, signs" and "wonders" performed by the last day professing Christian miracle movement has real power according to Jesus (Mt. 24:24-25) and Paul (2 Thes. 2:9-11) and that is the nature of its DECEPTION and you my friend are deceived.

 

[Greektim]

I understand his point but disagree. Our "joy in God" means nothing in regard to glorifying God, unless you are defining "joy" to be consequential of God's will being satisfied in our lives.

What if God's will in our lives is that we glorify him by enjoying him forever (as the catechisms say)? After all, what is God's will for God? To be glorified and enjoy himself forever. Anything less is beneath God and thus would be idolatry. Why not the same for us?

I"m not sure Piper would disagree w/ saying that our pleasure in God is a consequence of God working his will in us. He is a calvie after all. Piper's statement is more of a human perspective. What does it look like for us to give him maximum amount of glory? It looks like his children delighting in God. After all, that is how children bring the highest form of praise to their parents. When my daughter runs at me with a big smile to hug me for no other reason than she is delighted to see me... that's when it clicked for me.

 

[The Biblicist]

What if God's will in our lives is that we glorify him by enjoying him forever (as the catechisms say)?

Where does the Scripture say that? It does not say that. The problem is that "enjoying him forever" may be true in the eternal state when we are sinless in spirit and body, however, in the present state that statement is too vague and can be interpreted to mean various things. However, the scripture is not vague that glorifying God means to attribute only to Him which honors him - "I always do that which pleases the Father" and Christ is the model for glorifying God is he not? Is not the reverse equally as true that sin is coming "short of the glory of God"?? Hence, God is most glorified when His will is being accomplished in our life and that is the true meaning of Biblical joy and enjoyment of God.

 

[percho]

Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel. Ps 22:23

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this the whole of man. Ecc 12:13

 

[Greektim]

Where does the Scripture say that? It does not say that.

What if I just provide an example of where Scripture commands us to find joy or pleasure in God? "Delight yourself in the LORD..." (Ps 37:4). That passage can be summarized to say "Desire God, and he will give you himself (that which you desire)." Or to say it in more eloquent terms:

Psa 73:25 Whom have I in heaven but you? And there is nothing on earth that I desire besides you.
Psa 73:26 My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.

The problem is that "enjoying him forever" may be true in the eternal state when we are sinless in spirit and body, however, in the present state that statement is too vague and can be interpreted to mean various things.

So the problem is that it is open to interpretation??? I think Piper made himself clear when he wrote a book about it! So it is not open to interpretation. That is a ploy.

Your issue w/ sin now and sinlessness in the future doesn't hold theological water. Because we have been made alive in Jesus and raised and seated w/ Jesus and given the Holy Spirit as a downpayment of future grace... we can certainly glorify God in our mortal bodies much in the same way as in resurrection. Otherwise, why do we have the commands to enjoy God? Why did the Psalmist speak as if God was his ultimate treasure?

In the present state, enjoying God over everything else is exactly the hallmark of sanctification. Allow C. S. Lewis to illustrate: "It would seem that Our Lord finds our desires not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.” By finding ultimate pleasure in God over against sex or drugs or fill in the blank... we glorify God.

However, the scripture is not vague that glorifying God means to attribute only to Him which honors him - "I always do that which pleases the Father" and Christ is the model for glorifying God is he not? Is not the reverse equally as true that sin is coming "short of the glory of God"?? Hence, God is most glorified when His will is being accomplished in our life and that is the true meaning of Biblical joy and enjoyment of God.

When I enjoy God, what am I doing if not attributing to him that which honors him. I witness b/c I desire God. I sing b/c I find pleasure in God. I preach b/c I find ultimate satisfaction in God. We are creatures of desire. I am desiring the greatest thing in the universe. As a result, my actions best display his glory... b/c I serve him out of desire rather than duty.

 

[The Biblicist]

What if I just provide an example of where Scripture commands us to find joy or pleasure in God? "Delight yourself in the LORD..." (Ps 37:4). That passage can be summarized to say "Desire God, and he will give you himself (that which you desire)." Or to say it in more eloquent terms:

Psa 73:25 Whom have I in heaven but you? And there is nothing on earth that I desire besides you.
Psa 73:26 My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.

All you have done is provide scriptures that reveal a desire, but you have provided nothing to define how or what is required to accomplish that desire.

So the problem is that it is open to interpretation???

It must be defined not merely desired. The desire can mean anything at all without a clear Biblical definition of what is required to accomplish that desire.

I think Piper made himself clear when he wrote a book about it! So it is not open to interpretation. That is a ploy.

I have never read Piper's book, so it can hardly be a "ploy" on my part.

Your issue w/ sin now and sinlessness in the future doesn't hold theological water. Because we have been made alive in Jesus and raised and seated w/ Jesus and given the Holy Spirit as a downpayment of future grace...

The issue I made is not between sin and sinlessness. The issue I raised is sin merely defines what it means to "come short of the glory of God." That provides a negative definition of what does not glorify God and what Joy is not. However, a redeemed sinful man can glorify God but he cannot do it in his own power ("without me ye can do nothing" "to will is present with me but how to perform I find not."). Nor can he accomplish that any way he "desires" but it must be performed in the power of the Spirit in consistency with God's holiness and righteousness. Not even "love" rejoiceth in iniquity but in truth. John said he had "no greater joy" than hearing his children "walk in the truth" and therefore that is a necessary element to true joy. The only way man can find joy in the Lord is when he walks in fellowship with God (1 Jn. 1:4) as there can be no true enjoyment of God when fellowship with God is broken. Hence, what is necessary to maintain fellowship with God is also necessary to enjoy God. True enjoyment of God can ONLY be found as we "walk in the Spirit" as the only other altermative is to walk after the flesh and there can be no true enjoyment of God while pleasing the flesh.

The only way you can walk in the Spirit is for God to work in you both "to will and to do of His good pleasure" and it is in that pleasure you find enjoyment as there is no enjoyment outside of God's good pleasure.

 

[Greektim]

All you have done is provide scriptures that reveal a desire, but you have provided nothing to define how or what is required to accomplish that desire.




It must be defined not merely desired. The desire can mean anything at all without a clear Biblical definition of what is required to accomplish that desire.




I have never read Piper's book, so it can hardly be a "ploy" on my part.



The issue I made is not between sin and sinlessness. The issue I raised is sin merely defines what it means to "come short of the glory of God." That provides a negative definition of what does not glorify God and what Joy is not. However, a redeemed sinful man can glorify God but he cannot do it in his own power ("without me ye can do nothing" "to will is present with me but how to perform I find not."). Nor can he accomplish that any way he "desires" but it must be performed in the power of the Spirit in consistency with God's holiness and righteousness. Not even "love" rejoiceth in iniquity but in truth. John said he had "no greater joy" than hearing his children "walk in the truth" and therefore that is a necessary element to true joy. The only way man can find joy in the Lord is when he walks in fellowship with God (1 Jn. 1:4) as there can be no true enjoyment of God when fellowship with God is broken. Hence, what is necessary to maintain fellowship with God is also necessary to enjoy God. True enjoyment of God can ONLY be found as we "walk in the Spirit" as the only other altermative is to walk after the flesh and there can be no true enjoyment of God while pleasing the flesh.

The only way you can walk in the Spirit is for God to work in you both "to will and to do of His good pleasure" and it is in that pleasure you find enjoyment as there is no enjoyment outside of God's good pleasure.

I don't know why I was under the assumption you had read Piper's book. I got you confused w/ Deacon's post.

That is exactly the problem here. No wonder you don't understand the statement. You don't understand what is backing it up. That is the major issue then.

I challenge you, not to read the book (although I would recommend it over many other books) but to just read his sermons that developed into the book. It is a condensed version of what is going on here. Then you can see where he is coming from and what he means. Then we can discuss it.

Here is the link: http://www.desiringgod.org/sermons/by-topic/christian-hedonism

To go in order, make sure you pick the latest date from the 1983 series. But there is even a 2012 sermon that is a synopsis of everything, though I don't think it is his best presentation.

I strongly urge you to watch or listen or read these. It will clarify what his point is.

 

[The Biblicist]

I don't know why I was under the assumption you had read Piper's book. I got you confused w/ Deacon's post.

That is exactly the problem here. No wonder you don't understand the statement. You don't understand what is backing it up. That is the major issue then.

I challenge you, not to read the book (although I would recommend it over many other books) but to just read his sermons that developed into the book. It is a condensed version of what is going on here. Then you can see where he is coming from and what he means. Then we can discuss it.

Here is the link: http://www.desiringgod.org/sermons/by-topic/christian-hedonism

To go in order, make sure you pick the latest date from the 1983 series. But there is even a 2012 sermon that is a synopsis of everything, though I don't think it is his best presentation.

I strongly urge you to watch or listen or read these. It will clarify what his point is.

Ok, thanks for the address. I am sorta of busy the next two days but I will eventually try to examine it.