Featured God knows us before We are Born Therefore He Predestines By that Forknowledge

Brother,


It is through a sovereign quickening. Your question is similar to the one Nicodemus asked Jesus on how a man can be born again. Notice how Jesus answered him regarding the process, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." In other words, it is with a sovereign quickening without the any means of man, it is as Jesus said just like with the wind because with wind cannot see it, control it, or tell from "whence it cometh, and whither it goeth, so is every on the is born of the Spirit".

Jesus taught that those dead in trespasses and sins would be quickened by the power of his voice (Jn 5:25-29). In this same context it is taught this voice will also raise the bodily dead at the end of time. A man can give the words of Christ when they preach the gospel but not His voice, and as Christ will not use man to raise the bodily dead, neither does He use man to raise the spiritually dead.

All analogies of the new birth presented in the scriptures suggest an irresistible power working on a passive object. In particular, the acquisition of spiritual life is presented in the scriptures as being analogous to:

1) birth - Jn 1:11-13, Jn 3:3-8_
2) translation - Col 1:12-13
3) resurrection - Jn 5:25-29
4) creation - 2Cor 5:17, Ephesians 2:10

No individual experiencing any of the above transitions ever contributed in the least degree to the transition, nor have they ever successfully resisted it.

 

Brother,

Yes, those who the Spirit regenerates will believe upon Him, however faith to believe upon him we read is a "fruit of the Spirit". Galatians 5:22 says, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,", therefore one must have the tree that produces the fruit (i.e. the Spirit) in them first before they can have the faith that the tree (i.e. the Spirit) produces. What comes first the tree or the fruit?

Also, we both seem to agree prior to being born again even the elect were "dead in trespasses and sins". A spiritually dead man cannot do anything that requires spiritual life such as having faith, they must first be made alive, just like Lazarus being physically dead in the tomb could not even move until Christ first resurrected him, then he was able to come forward and respond to the Lord's voice and call, likewise one must first be given life of the Holy Spirit in them thereby making them alive before they are capable of having faith in the gospel message. The Holy Spirit gives life sovereignly just like He did so when he came upon Mary and made her pregnant with the Son of God through his sovereign moving without any means of men (though of course Jesus existed prior to being in Mary's womb as the Son of God, yet he did not become flesh until the Holy Spirit moved upon Mary). Life must precede action. This is true principle of logic. One who is dead in "trespasses and sins" has no life, therefore they can do nothing spiritually such as repent and believe the gospel until the Spirit first sovereignly imports the Holy Ghost and takes out the stony heart and gives them a new heart thereby person making the person born again so they may believe in Jesus as you have cited that Christ commanded in John 3 should be done by all children of God.

 

Brother Revmwc,


The regenerated person is born again, but they do not know how Jesus reconciled them (through the cross and his resurrection 2,000 years ago), thus the need to learn through the preaching and faith in the gospel how it is their Lord saved them so they may have peace of mind to know they have been forgiven of their sins and glorify God when they learn how they were redeemed through the cross alone. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:" (Romans 5:1). The gospel brings peace of mind to the regenerated burdened sinner who knew he needed a deliverance when he learns he was delivered 2,000 years ago by the cross alone. Legally, we are justified by Christ's blood 2,000 years ago. This is why the scripture says, " Much more then, being now justified by his blood" (Romans 5:9). That this happened 2,000 years ago is seen clearly here, "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." Justification by faith is a different justification from our legal justification, it is an experimental justification that every believer experiences when they hear and have faith in the gospel. This does not legally save them (the cross alone did that 2,000 years ago), but it tells the regenerated soul how though unworthy they were Christ reconciled them 2,000 years ago by his death and resurrection.

 

Hi again brother Revemwc,

Being quickened is often used as a synonym for being born again (that is when one receives the Holy Spirit), You need to understand we cannot be born again by producing faith in the Lord because per scripture faith is a fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22), therefore you must first have the Spirit that produces the fruit of faith before you can have the fruit of faith. What comes first the tree growing or the fruit that the tree produces?

You have the order backwards we are quickened and then have faith, we do not have faith to become quickened. One cannot produce faith to become quickened because one who is spiritually dead in sin does not possess any life to produce spiritual faith. This is why Paul said "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned". (1 Corinthians 2:14). This is also why we read regarding faith that Jesus is "the author and finisher" of our faith (Hebrews 12:2) and that faith is a gift we receive, not something we produce, "through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8). This gift is given by the Holy Spirit when he makes us born again and the object of our faith is the gospel after we hear it preached. The fact that faith is God's work He performs, not ours, is underscored by Jesus here, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent". We see explicitly here that our believing is the "work of God" not our work.

 

Please do not close this...we're thisclose to a breakthrough with Bro. mwc...

 

People knowing where you are coming from is not the eternal importance here brother. I say this with all due respect but it is pure emotionalism and subjective. Yes, God knows your heart, but it is merely an emotional plea and diverting from the truth of the subject and the matter at hand.

Brother, the truth has been shown you, nothing in the texts you've provided teach God chose others based upon their choosing of Him. There is some disingenuous response by you in this thread concerning this, you've dismissed the evidence shown you, and God knows that about you as well since we are alluding to 'our hearts'. I say this in love and in all due respect to you.

 

Hi Brother Revmwc,

If you have time, please reply to my posts 129-131. Also, as you seem to believe one does not get the Holy Ghost until after they have faith in the gospel, how do you reconcile John the Baptist having the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb?

 

Brother Revemwc,

The verse does not says "Before I formed thee I knew thee therefore I ordained thee a prophet", but this is what you would need it to say to prove your teaching. It only says He knew Jeremiah when he was in the womb and ordained him a prophet. Nothing in the verse indicates implicitly or explicitly that the fact that he "knew" Jeremiah was causative to Him ordaining him a prophet. God could not see any "forseen" good spiritual capabilities such as faith that Jeremiah could self generate without being regenerated otherwise how would what Jesus say be true, "for without me ye can do nothing" (John 15:5)? Nothing means nothing, very plain and simple.