God, logic and His attributes

[Humblesmith]

God can't lie.
God can't sin.
God can't stop being God.
God can't cease to exist.
God can't do absurd, contradictory things, like make a square circle or a stick with only one end on it.
God can't make himself be created, when He is uncreated.

So there are many things God can't do.

 

[MB]

Okay, Greek scholars, I quoted Paul in his letter to Titus (1:2) as saying that God cannot lie. Is this a faithful translation into English?

MB now says there isn't anything that God can't do. Can these two statements be resolved in any way?

I don't for a minute believe God will lie and because of His own will in this His being all powerful isn't effected. As I said before There is a huge difference between won't do and can't do. Either God is all powerful or He isn't, there is no in between. The Bible says all things are possible with God. If there is one thing that God can't do then that becomes an impossibility and that makes His Word a lie.
We can't forget that we see things from a different perspective. Our view of God's power is limited by our understanding so was Paul's.
MB

 

[TCGreek]

I don't for a minute believe God will lie and because of His own will in this His being all powerful isn't effected. As I said before There is a huge difference between won't do and can't do. Either God is all powerful or He isn't, there is no in between. The Bible says all things are possible with God. If there is one thing that God can't do then that becomes an impossibility and that makes His Word a lie.
We can't forget that we see things from a different perspective. Our view of God's power is limited by our understanding so was Paul's.
MB

I want you to take my following in the right manner, for I intend no ill-feeling:

1. You need a refresher course in Theology proper or you need a course in Theology proper.

2. To be honest, I get ticked off when people who supposed to know the Scriptures make these humanly-laden comments.

 

[MB]

Hi Humblesmith,

God can't lie.
God can't sin.
God can't stop being God.
God can't cease to exist.
God can't do absurd, contradictory things, like make a square circle or a stick with only one end on it.
God can't make himself be created, when He is uncreated.

So there are many things God can't do.

Then how can Christ Himself say,
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Luk 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
MB

 

[webdog]

Hi Humblesmith,

Then how can Christ Himself say,
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Luk 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
MB

I think the context is in regards to His creation...not Him. Scritpure plainly states God cannot lie. There is no way around that, as if He could...He would be lying, which means He would not be God.

 

[TCGreek]

I think the context is in regards to His creation...not Him. Scritpure plainly states God cannot lie. There is no way around that, as if He could...He would be lying, which means He would not be God.

Good stuff, Webdog! :thumbs:

That's a great argument. I'll have to remember to use it myself.

 

[MB]

Hi TC,
You seem to have the wrong impression of yourself here my friend. You are not my superior nor have you any authority to make such a demeaning statement to me

I want you to take my follow in the right manner, for I intend no ill-feeling:

1. You need a refresher course in Theology proper or you need a course in Theology proper.

2. To be honest, I get ticked off when people who supposed to know the Scriptures make these humanly-laden comments.

There is a problem with your assumption of my needs. I refuse to believe there is anything that is impossible with God. This is because of my faith in God and not because I believe He would do anything like tell a lie. I believe in an all powerful God the word can't doesn't exist where God is concerned if He is to be all powerful. If God is an all powerful and sovergin God then there is absolutely nothing He cannot do. There are things He won't do that I will admit. I showed three passages above that says all things are possible with God. all of them statements made by Christ. With scripture if you don't mind show me where Christ said He cannot lie.

MB

 

[TCGreek]

Hi TC,
You seem to have the wrong impression of yourself here my friend. You are not my superior nor have you any authority to make such a demeaning statement to me

1. As I said, I meant no ill-feeling, but sorry it still resulted in such.

There is a problem with your assumption of my needs. I refuse to believe there is anything that is impossible with God. This is because of my faith in God and not because I believe He would do anything like tell a lie. I believe in an all powerful God the word can't doesn't exist where God is concerned if He is to be all powerful. If God is an all powerful and sovergin God then there is absolutely nothing He cannot do. There are things He won't do that I will admit. I showed three passages above that says all things are possible with God. all of them statements made by Christ. With scripture if you don't mind show me where Christ said He cannot lie.

MB

2. Is it possible that the information of God you are working with is not altogether correct? For example, some believers think that God is a peevish monarch and it is what they work with in their daily lives.

 

[npetreley]

Hi Humblesmith,

Then how can Christ Himself say,
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Luk 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
MB

Jesus was referring to a specific issue - the salvation of man. The question was, "who then can be saved?" The answer was, "with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Hebrews says it is impossible for God to lie. Either you have to accept the fact that the Bible contradicts itself, or you'll have to understand that Jesus wasn't saying God can do virtually anything (including lie).

 

[MB]

TC

1. As I said, I meant no ill-feeling, but sorry it still resulted in such.



2. Is it possible that the information of God you working with is not altogether correct? For example, some believers think that God is a peevish monarch and it is what they work with in their daily lives.

Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

I provided three witnesses where is your's
MB

 

[TCGreek]

TC


Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

I provided three witnesses where is your's
MB

I kindly suggest to you that you consider npetreley and webdog's posts above.

 

[MB]

Hi Webdog,

I think the context is in regards to His creation...not Him. Scritpure plainly states God cannot lie. There is no way around that, as if He could...He would be lying, which means He would not be God.

The context was men being saved. I'm not arguing that God ever lied ofcourse He hasn't, but He is God and being all powerful means there is nothing God can't do. Sure there are a lot of thing He won't do because He's God but I wouldn't say can't. If all things are trully possible with God. If there is one thing God can't do, or is unable to do as the word can't implies, then He isn't all powerful. Do we believe in a God who is less than all powerful?
MB

 

[MB]

Hi TC,
I accept your apollogy in your other post

I kindly suggest to you that you consider npetreley and webdog's posts above.

I have considered them both. While I understand their position one verse in titus doesn't over ride three from Mathew, Luke, and Mark. I also understand Pauls position when he said what he said. I see three statements from Christ about a fact and one from Paul a statement no doubt praising God's purity no less a fact.
Don't take offense of a defense of our Lord because this is exactly what it is. If Christ says that all things are possible with God. Then you can be asurred that all things are possible with Him.
MB

 

[MB]

Hi Npetrely,

Jesus was referring to a specific issue - the salvation of man. The question was, "who then can be saved?" The answer was, "with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Hebrews says it is impossible for God to lie. Either you have to accept the fact that the Bible contradicts itself, or you'll have to understand that Jesus wasn't saying God can do virtually anything (including lie).

Seems the same man who wrote Hebrews also wrote Titus.
I don't believe scripture contradicts itself nor do I believe that two verses from the same witness over rides three witnesses from three scriptures. If a third witness can be found saying God can't then it's a draw, but four would prove your point.
MB

 

[TCGreek]

Hi TC,
I accept your apollogy in your other post

I have considered them both. While I understand their position one verse in titus doesn't over ride three from Mathew, Luke, and Mark. I also understand Pauls position when he said what he said. I see three statements from Christ about a fact and one from Paul a statement no doubt praising God's purity no less a fact.
Don't take offense of a defense of our Lord because this is exactly what it is. If Christ says that all things are possible with God. Then you can be asurred that all things are possible with Him.
MB

As has been ably pointed out above, it seems like you are disregarding context for some pet-position of yours.

 

[npetreley]

Hi TC,
I accept your apollogy in your other post

I have considered them both. While I understand their position one verse in titus doesn't over ride three from Mathew, Luke, and Mark. I also understand Pauls position when he said what he said. I see three statements from Christ about a fact and one from Paul a statement no doubt praising God's purity no less a fact.
Don't take offense of a defense of our Lord because this is exactly what it is. If Christ says that all things are possible with God. Then you can be asurred that all things are possible with Him.
MB

Is this a contest of numbers? Do we throw out verses that seem contradictory because there are fewer of them than the verses they seem to contradict? This is an awfully strange way to interpret scripture. Rather, when two verses seem contradictory, one must go back and reinterpret one or both until one understands why they are NOT contradictory. All the verses stand -- you don't toss out the one(s) fewer in number that you don't like.

Hebrews 6:18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.

There it is in black and white. It is impossible for God to lie. If you insist on asserting that it is possible for God to do anything, you have to rip this one out of the Bible, read it and weep, or change your interpretation of what Jesus said. I already showed you it was specifically with respect to how man gets saved, not a general statement about God's attributes or abilities.

 

[npetreley]

Hi Npetrely,

Seems the same man who wrote Hebrews also wrote Titus.
I don't believe scripture contradicts itself nor do I believe that two verses from the same witness over rides three witnesses from three scriptures. If a third witness can be found saying God can't then it's a draw, but four would prove your point.
MB

So we can't rely on anything in scripture unless it appears in scripture three or more times!?!?!?!

Well, I'm done debating with you, that's for sure.

 

[TCGreek]

So we can't rely on anything in scripture unless it appears in scripture three or more times!?!?!?!

Well, I'm done debating with you, that's for sure.

I agree that this is a strange method of interpretation.

 

[npetreley]

I agree that this is a strange method of interpretation.

Yeah. It's all the word of God, but we can't be sure God knows what He is talking about unless He says it three times. That's some weird wiggy mojo.

 

[Humblesmith]

Hi Humblesmith,

Then how can Christ Himself say,
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Luk 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
MB

So, when you quote "with God all things are possible" then there is only two possible conclusions:

1. It is possible that God could be wrong about this, or

2. It is impossible that God could be wrong about this.

We won't say that No. 1 is correct, for it would be heresy; but choosing it would show that something is impossible with God (for then all things would not be possible for God).

Of course, No. 2 is correct. It is impossible that God could be wrong about this. But logically, this means that there is something that is impossible for God, does it not?