God Might Use Both Monergism and Synergism, a Theory

[Steven Yeadon]

Thesis

My thesis is that God uses single predestination to choose certain elect individuals from before birth. This is equivalent to the special grace shown to those like Isaac and Jacob. God may also be using double predestination concerning certain individuals who seem destined to perdition from before birth such as Pharaoh, Judas, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet. However, God has made it so that most of His creatures are saved through a resistible Call to faith, a Call to faith that always requires mercy and compassion on God’s part. A Call that originates from God through Nature, Law, or Gospel and must find its resolution in Jesus Christ and the Cross. A Call the vast majority of humanity has rejected. God also hardens people, potentially to damnation, for His own purposes, as in the case of Pharaoh. A hardening that may be removed at a later time in a person or group’s lifetimes, as I will argue happened to the Jews of the apostolic era.

To start presenting this thesis I will reference Romans 9-11, which gave me the idea.

This thread is an invitation to check my bible study. In another thread, in the next few days, I will post a more philosophical critique of both current Calvinist and Arminian doctrine with the intention of finding a third way.

I will establish what is on topic for this thread and ask the moderators to enforce it if need be. This debate is whether my thesis is biblical. Of special importance to this is whether I interpret the text of Romans 9-11 correctly.

Romans 9-11 Bible Study

Romans 9:1-5

9 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could [a]wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed [c]forever. Amen.

*God through Paul communicates Paul’s grief and sorrow. He could wish to be cut off and sent to hell if it was for the sake of his fellow Israelites.

*Paul explains the many blessings God has given the Israelites, a chosen nation in which Christ was incarnated as one of their own.

*Note how the end of verse 5 exalts Christ amidst such grief and sorrow.

*Before continuing, it is important to state that the rest of Romans 9 is the most offensive section of scripture to modern mankind.

Romans 9:6-16

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s [d]descendants, but: “[e]through Isaac your [f]descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as [g]descendants. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would [h]stand, not because of works but [j]because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

*God has sovereign choice to choose whom He wants for blessing. He can have compassion and mercy on whom He wants from before birth, as shown in Jacob and Esau with God’s choice of Jacob over Esau, the older brother. This was to show that God’s choice of people to blessing is irrespective of their deeds. The goodness of this reality for a God of innocent character is independent of the constructs for good and evil found among mankind. This is not capricious but an aspect of God's character.

*Notice how the true Israel are children of the promise like Isaac as opposed to Abraham’s other son, Ishmael. Being born a descendant of Abraham by flesh does not make one a child of promise, but instead the true Israel is made up of children of promise Called by God irrespective of deeds.

*Thus the mercy of God does not depend on an act of the will or any strength in individuals.

Romans 9:17-21

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed [k]throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel [l]for honorable use and another [m]for common use?

*This section reveals that God has sovereign choice to choose whom He wants for wrath. When mankind retorts that is unfair, God responds by saying does not a potter have a right to make the clay as he desires? That rankles our sense of justice. However, it is still within the character of an almighty and innocent God. Just as God chose Pharaoh for wrath in the Old Testament by hardening him and raising him up as Pharaoh, God has the ability to withhold compassion and mercy to whomever He wants from their creation.

Romans 9:22-29

22 [n]What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. 25 As He says also in Hosea,

“I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’

And her who was not beloved, ‘beloved.’”

26 “And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, ‘you are not My people,’

There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute His word on the earth, [o]thoroughly and [p]quickly.” 29 And just as Isaiah foretold,

“Unless the Lord of [q]Sabaoth had left to us a [r]posterity,

We would have become like Sodom, and would have resembled Gomorrah.”

*This section is the fusion of the two previous concepts that God from creation can will that some be designated for mercy and compassion while others are designated for wrath. There is good in this that God can make His almighty power known by making some people to be objects of wrath from creation. People destined for hell. While others are to be made at their creation to be vessels of mercy to reveal the riches of His glory upon them. It is not beyond God's character or power to do these things, otherwise scripture would not say it is so with such frankness. Thus, God can make children of wrath and children of mercy, humans do not get a vote, no matter how “unfair” that seems.

*God through Paul compares the children of mercy to those Paul writes to both Jew and Gentile, including Paul himself. God foreknew this matter. Hosea shows that those who are not God’s people or beloved will be called His sons, His people, and His beloved. Isaiah shows that though Israel seem numerous, it was the remnant that would survive. That God, unless He had chosen a seed, then Israel would have been like Sodom and Gomorrah.

Romans 9:30-33

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is [t]by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were [v]by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 just as it is written,

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense,

And he who believes in Him will not be [w]disappointed.”

*This section shows that the Gentiles have attained righteousness not by pursuing the Law but by faith. Meanwhile the Jews of Paul’s day pursued a law of righteousness through their works, and did not attain to that law of righteousness. The Jews of Paul’s day stumbled over the stumbling stone that is Jesus Christ.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Romans 10:1-4

Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the [a]end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live [c]by that righteousness.

*In verse 1 God through Paul expresses Paul’s heart’s desire and his prayers are for the salvation of his people, the Jews by flesh.

*In verse 2 through 4 it is shown that the Jews are full of zeal for God but this zeal is not in accordance with knowledge. They do not know about God’s righteousness and are trying to establish their own righteousness before God. They did not subject themselves to God’s righteousness found in Jesus Christ, the end of the Law, and righteousness to all that believe on Him.

*Verse 5 shows that to be righteous under the Law requires adherence to it to be righteous. As Paul explained in Romans 3:9-20, all are transgressors of the Law and sinners.

6 But the righteousness [d]based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 [e]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, [f]resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, [g]resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be [h]disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

*The righteousness based on faith is like the Law Moses communicates in Deuteronomy. In Deuteronomy 30:10-14 Moses says that the Law of God is very near to the Israelites he is talking to, the Law is in their mouths and in their hearts instead of in heaven or beyond the sea. Thus, God through Paul compares this to Paul’s day. The righteousness based on faith does not require the power to incarnate Christ, nor does it require the power to descend into death to resurrect Christ. Instead, the Word of God is in their mouths and heart through the faith preached by the apostles.

*This faith preached by the apostles is that if you confess that Jesus is Lord, Messiah and Yahweh in whom the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form (Colossians 2:9), and believe in your heart that Jesus rose from the dead, with knowledge of His life, including the knowledge He died on the Cross to save us from our sins, you will be saved. For the heart has faith in Jesus Christ resulting in righteousness, and the mouth confesses Jesus Christ is Lord showing living faith.

*Notice that more knowledge about the Gospel than presented in Romans 10:9 is assumed, a given that would be natural for those personally taught the whole Gospel of the Kingdom taught by the apostles over days or weeks or months.

*Verse 11 through 12 shows that those who believe in Jesus Christ with the heart will not be disappointed. Being a Jew or Gentile does not matter for Jesus is Lord of all, Who gives riches to all those that confess Him with their mouth.

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”

16 However, they did not all heed the [j]good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word [k]of Christ.

18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,

And their words to the ends of the [l]world.”

19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,

“I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation,

By a nation without understanding will I anger you.”

20 And Isaiah is very bold and says,

“I was found by those who did not seek Me,

I became manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”

21 But as for Israel He says, “All the day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

*Verse 14-15 shows that believers must be sent so that they can preach the Gospel so that people can hear it so that they can believe in Jesus Christ. These sent believers are bearers of good news of good things. The “they” is likely still Israel, which is the common topic of Romans 9-11, but in this case the statement can be both universal and situational.

*Verse 16 shows that not all heed the Gospel preached to them. This is just as Isaiah predicted of the suffering servant, by the context of Isaiah 52:13-53:12, especially Isaiah 53:1. Again, the “they” is likely Israel, but an be both universal and situational.

*Verse 17 is a universal statement that Christ must be preached for people to put faith in Him.

*Verse 18 is difficult. The world here as given by the bible verse taken from Psalm 19:4 in context of Psalm 19 is clearly the whole face of the planet earth. However, this is not true for not every nation has heard the Word in Paul’s day. If contextualized the “world” may refer to the Roman World, or to the parts of the world in which the Jews lived. Nevertheless, verse 18 asks and answers a question relating to Israel, the “they.” The answer to this question is that all Israelites all over the world, have heard the Gospel, depending on the definition of “the world.”

*The word for “know” in verse 19 is in the Mounce Interlinear translated “understand.” Verse 19 indicates Israel is the “they” being used. The question is asked of Israel, did they understand what was going on? The answer is yes. The Gentiles believing in the Jewish Messiah is angering and making Jews jealous. Verse 20 goes on to show that God is making Himself found by Gentiles, who never sought Him. God is making Himself manifest to the Gentiles, who did not ask for Him. As for Israel in comparison, God has long stretched out His hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.
γινώσκω | billmounce.com

Romans 11:1-6
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, [a]a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” 4 But what [b]is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s [c]gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer [d]on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

*In verses 1 and 2, talking of Israel, as was the topic of Romans 10, God through Paul states that He has not rejected His people Israel, whom God foreknew. Evidence for this is that Paul himself is a Jew and a saved believer in Jesus Christ.

*To explain this in greater detail, God through Paul states that just as in the days of Elijah the prophet, God has graciously chosen a remnant to survive. In Elijah’s day it was 7,000 men who had not worshipped Baal. God in grace chose that remnant irrespective of works, and in Paul’s day that was happening again.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Romans 11:7-10
7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but [e]those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,

Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,

Down to this very day.”

9 And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,

And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.

10

“Let their eyes be darkened to see not,

And bend their backs forever.”

*Verse 7 shows that, as said earlier, Israel by the flesh sought righteousness by the Law, and they have not obtained righteousness. This is not just the willing of the Israelites but in fact God hardened them to do this, and those God graciously chose obtained righteousness by faith instead (This is likely referring to the elect Jews of the previous verses). Paul then shows how this was predicted in scripture.

Romans 11:11-15
11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their [f]fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my [g]fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

*Verse 11 may seem like a contradiction to what has come before it, but it is not. God through Paul clearly states that Israel by the flesh, who were hardened, were not made to stumble so as to perish. Instead, by their transgressions while hardened, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel by the flesh jealous of what the Gentiles received.

*Verse 12 continues to state that by the transgressions of hardened Israel riches have gone to the world, and by the failure of hardened Israel riches have gone to the Gentiles. Now if by these transgressions and failures, the world and Gentiles have become rich, then how much more will the obedience of Israel in the flesh result in riches. This thought is also seen in verse 15. If Israel by the flesh’s rejection by God is the reconciliation of the world, then what will their acceptance by God be but life from the dead.

*The word for “I magnify” in verse 13 is rendered “I take pride in” for the Mounce Interlinear.
δοξάζω | billmounce.com

*Paul in verse 13 and 14 states that he is talking to Gentiles in this letter. Yet, as an apostle to the Gentiles, Paul takes pride in his ministry, so that he may move to jealousy his fellow Israelites by flesh, who were hardened, so as to save some of them. Thus, Paul’s ministry and his prayers as stated in Romans 10:1 are geared for the salvation of hardened Israel, rejected by God’s choice.

Romans 11:16-24
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the [h]rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

*God through Paul continues in verse 16 with two analogies to show the reasoning of the last section. If the Israelites elected by God by His choice are holy, then any added to their first lump of dough or their root will be holy too. But if some branches of this root were broken off (the hardened Israelites), and the branches of a wild olive tree were grafted in instead (the Gentiles), then the Gentiles Paul writes to are not to be arrogant towards those branches taken off the olive tree (the hardened Israelites).

*In the second half of verse 18 and verses 19-21 it is stated that if the Gentiles Paul writes to are arrogant, then they must remember that they are supported by the root of chosen Israelites. The Gentiles Paul writes to may say “Branches were broken off (Israelites were hardened) so that I might be grafted in (saved).” Paul says this is quite right because the hardened Jews were broken off for their lack of faith (a lack of faith due to God’s hardening) and the Gentiles stand by their faith. However, Paul’s audience is not to be conceited but to fear. For, if God did not spare His people Israel according to the flesh, He will not spare faithless Gentiles either.

*Verse 22 tells us we behold the kindness and severity of God. Severity to those hardened Israelites, kindness to Gentiles, if the Gentiles continue in their faith.

*Verse 23 makes more sense of this mystery. If the Israelites do not continue in unbelief towards Jesus Christ, they will be grafted in again, because God can do so. If wild olive tree branches (Gentiles) can be grafted in against nature, then how easy it is to graft natural branches (hardened Israel) into the chosen Isralites.

Romans 11:25-32
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,

He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”

27 “This is My covenant with them,

When I take away their sins.”

28 [j]From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but [k]from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

*Verse 25 tells Paul’s Gentile audience that they are not to be uninformed of this mystery God through Paul has revealed. The reason for the revelation of this mystery is given, so that the Gentiles are not wise in their own estimation. The mystery is then given. A partial hardening of the people Israel has happened by God’s choice until the fullness (The Interlinear says “full number”) of the Gentiles has come in.

*Verses 26-27 are difficult and continue the mystery Paul is explaining. The word “saved” in verse 26 is actually translated “rescued from unbelief.”
σῴζω | billmounce.com

*”All Israel will be saved (or rescued from unbelief)” may talk of the true Israel identified in Romans 9. Another interpretation may very well be warranted, which means the text remains difficult to understand. Regardless, scripture is clear before and beyond this point.

*In verse 29 the word for “calling” is actually translated “the call or invitation to the privileges of the Gospel.”
κλῆσις | billmounce.com

*The hardened Israelites, for the sake of the Gentiles, are enemies of the Gospel, but they are beloved for their ancestors according to the flesh for God’s invitation to the Gospel is final.

*For just as the Gentiles were disobedient to God, having been shown mercy by hardened Israel’s disobedience, so that those who are disobedient (hardened Israel), due to the mercy shown the Gentiles, may make it possible for some hardened Israelites to be shown mercy through a Call that may be answered.

*Verse 32 states that all (likely referring to hardened Israel, but a universal declaration is a possible translation) are shut up in disobedience so that God may give mercy to them all.

Romans 11:33-36
33 Oh, the depth of the riches [l]both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him [m]that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory [n]forever. Amen.

*God through Paul breaks into a liturgical formula praising God, a doxology. The depth of God’s wisdom and knowledge hold great riches. His judgments and ways are unsearchable and unfathomable. No one has a mind like Yahweh, and no one is His counselor. No one has ever given Yahweh something that He must pay them back for, because from Him, through Him, and to Him are all things (could also be things and people since it is the Greek word Pas). To Yahweh be the fame (or glory) forever, Amen.
πᾶς | billmounce.com

 

[ivdavid]

This section reveals that God has sovereign choice to choose whom He wants for wrath.

I guess you're influenced by the calvinist system here. Many interpret this section quite differently and still hold it consistent with the rest of Scriptures.

It's not really helpful when the word 'sovereign' is used everywhere. Would you say God is sovereign in His righteousness - well, in an absolute sense, of course God is sovereign in His righteousness but can He ever not be righteous? Shouldn't we instead reserve the usage only to scenarios where God could do something or equally not do that thing? For example, God must always be Just - but God may or may not show mercy. The latter can be specifically described as contingent on His sovereignty.

So, from the above, can God's wrath be a sovereign choice at all times? Isn't it constrained by the Law of sin and death - the soul that sins deserves to incur wrath and die. God's election and non-election is undoubtedly sovereign but can predestination to condemnation and wrath be completely sovereign in this sense too? Wrath requires sin to be committed but election and non-election was before any man's good or evil (Rom 9:11) - how can then there be a sovereign selection unto wrath prior to that individual's sin?

 

[ivdavid]

When mankind retorts that is unfair, God responds by saying does not a potter have a right to make the clay as he desires? That rankles our sense of justice.

Mankind did not retort in Rom 9 about predestined condemnation being unfair - that's calvinism lumping all objections against it under this single umbrella. Mankind instead only retorts about the fairness of hardening someone - how can God harden someone and yet find fault for that person's disobedience (Rom 9:19)?

To which the reply is that it is absolutely within God's sovereign entitlement to pick from the same lump either to honor or to dishonor. Calvinism assumes this lump is the pre-creation material whereas the lump could instead be read as the mass of wicked unrighteous people described in Rom 3. From this same lump of equally unprofitable evil people having the same nature of wrath and equally already deserving destruction, God picks some to honor and shows mercy in birthing them with a new nature while the others He picks for dishonor under His hardening unto wrath.

Having shown that this hardening some of the wicked is not in itself unrighteous, God further proves His impartiality in determining this 'some' before any man's good or evil - so that when He does deal with them after their evil, they may not accuse Him of being partial in His selection of the 'some'. And this is where calvinism stumbles - they see this correlation with sovereign election before the ages, and assume the hardening and showing mercy too occurred from back then. But again, for what sin of an individual should God show mercy over when election is before any of his good or evil?

 

[ivdavid]

Just as God chose Pharaoh for wrath in the Old Testament by hardening him and raising him up as Pharaoh...

It's raising up and then hardening, right? Also, hardening can be seen as God's sentencing of condemnation which occurs after man fills up his measure of iniquity.

God's hardening of Israel occurred only with the generation (Matt 23:36) to whom Jesus came, given the fullness of time of them having filled up their fathers' measure of iniquity (Matt 23:32) - exactly similar to God's hardening of the Amorites (Joshua 11:20) only after they filled their measure of iniquity (Gen 15:16).

When one deserves condemnation for their evil, God can judge them by causing them to die in their sleep - or He could use them as props by hardening them to rebel further and to then vanquish them, showing forth more of His power and glory over their increased evil. He does not do this before they have filled their measure of iniquity though - until which time He exhorts them to repent and live (Matt 23:37, Eze 33:11).

 

[Steven Yeadon]

It's raising up and then hardening, right? Also, hardening can be seen as God's sentencing of condemnation which occurs after man fills up his measure of iniquity.

God's hardening of Israel occurred only with the generation (Matt 23:36) to whom Jesus came, given the fullness of time of them having filled up their fathers' measure of iniquity (Matt 23:32) - exactly similar to God's hardening of the Amorites (Joshua 11:20) only after they filled their measure of iniquity (Gen 15:16).

When one deserves condemnation for their evil, God can judge them by causing them to die in their sleep - or He could use them as props by hardening them to rebel further and to then vanquish them, showing forth more of His power and glory over their increased evil. He does not do this before they have filled their measure of iniquity though - until which time He exhorts them to repent and live (Matt 23:37, Eze 33:11).

I get you. Very interesting points. Romans 11 shows God hardened Israel of Jesus' time. However, it makes clear the hardening is removed so that the Call of the Gospel could be efficacious.

I could be reading too much into God making people for wrath. For that would require sin on the part of the vessel and God does not author sin. I logically contradicted myself with double predestination.

 

[Yeshua1]

I get you. Very interesting points. Romans 11 shows God hardened Israel of Jesus' time. However, it makes clear the hardening is removed so that the Call of the Gospel could be efficacious.

I could be reading too much into God making people for wrath. For that would require sin on the part of the vessel and God does not author sin. I logically contradicted myself with double predestination.

per your OP question, God uses the M and not the S!

 

[Dave G]

@Steven Yeadon :

Forget about the "M" and the "S" for a moment, and forget about fitting your reading and understanding of Scripture into a "systematic, theological box", if that is what may be on your mind.
When you read those passages in Romans, how does it appear to you the first, the second, the third and the 40th time that you read through that letter?
How about when you go away and read other parts of the Bible, and then come back?
Does anything change or get clearer that was "fuzzy" before?

You have a Teacher ( 1 John 2:20-27 ) and you have His words ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).
You have all that you need to grow ( 1 Peter 2:2 ) in both knowledge and grace.
Trust the Lord with all your heart, and lean not unto your own ( or anyone else's ) understanding ( Proverbs 3:5-7 ).

Go with what you are convinced of when you read it for yourself, and don't worry about how you might "incur the wrath" of the people on this forum, other forums, in your church or how your conclusions might look to other professing Christians around you.
At the end of the day, you stand before the Lord as a believer in Jesus Christ.
You're not part of an army that has the right to put you into lock step with a certain set of doctrines, and you're definitely not saved so that others can be happy with you and your beliefs.

I didn't get to where I am today by worrying about the opinions of others ( not that you are, but it does appear that you are concerned enough about what you believe to ask others their opinions about it ), and I certainly don't care what the prominent teachers out there are teaching.
Personally speaking, if I'm not satisfied that anyone is speaking the truth according to Scripture itself, then I have the right to disagree on what I believe are Biblical grounds.
If I'm not 100% satisfied that today's teachers are getting things right, then I have the duty and privilege to mark and avoid those teachers.

If someone makes a comment like this to you:

I guess you're influenced by the calvinist system here.

...don't be overly concerned about it.
No one has the right to tell you what to be influenced by, and what not to be influenced by.

They can give you what they believe is sound advice, recommend sources and even tell you what they believe and why... but they are not your Master...
Jesus Christ is.

I can tell you that in over 40 years of being a believer, I was influenced heavily for 25+ years of it by the "Traditionalist / Provisionalist" system;
A system that makes being born again primarily dependent upon the person's choice of whether to accept or reject Christ as their Saviour.

17 years ago I decided to stop listening to men, and took all of my teachings and beliefs back to Scripture...
Needless to say, I'm not a "Traditionalist" anymore.
Neither am I a "Wesleyan Arminian" nor a Roman Catholic "Molinist", either.

Many here would tag me with the name "Calvinist"...
But I don't care.
I don't have to answer to them, I answer to God.

He is my Lord, and He is my Saviour.
What He says, I believe.
What men say, I take with a big grain of salt.


A word of advice?
As a believer, you have the right and privilege to decide everything for yourself.
Don't let a pastor, preacher, friend or even your wife ( should you have one ), ever try to tell you what you should believe and why.

Instead,
Believe God's very words and trust Him to give you the correct understanding of them by His Spirit.
Don't expect easy answers and fast answers to anything when it comes to doctrines and other Biblical subjects.
Study His word diligently...spend quality time in the Scriptures, and leave the results to the Lord.


May God bless you greatly in your studies.

 

[ivdavid]

I can tell you that in over 40 years of being a believer, I was influenced heavily for 25+ years of it by the "Traditionalist / Provisionalist" system;
A system that makes being born again primarily dependent upon the person's choice of whether to accept or reject Christ as their Saviour.

17 years ago I decided to stop listening to men, and took all of my teachings and beliefs back to Scripture...

Having experienced what you did, if you've observed certain men's teachings not aligning with Scriptures, wouldn't you then exhort others not to be influenced by such erroneous teachings of men by pointing them to Scriptures lest they be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin? Doesn't Heb 3:13 in fact command us to do so?

Don't let a pastor, preacher, friend or even your wife ( should you have one ), ever try to tell you what you should believe and why.

What else is the job of a pastor or preacher if not to tell you what you should believe and why? It's one thing to ask every man to be fully persuaded in his own mind (Rom 14:5) but isn't it going against Scriptures to say one mustn't listen to any other man at all even to consider and confirm from Scriptures as the Berean church did?

What He says, I believe.
What men say, I take with a big grain of salt.

Yes, we don't rely on men to have the final authority at all - God alone teaches us truths in the spirit. But God also does so through the participation of men in the church, right? My question is - how do you discern when it is God saying something and when it is mere man saying something when God could use men to speak His truths or when you yourself a man could fall into error in your evaluation of what you think is from God Himself when it actually isn't? You do realize that most sets of contrary doctrines are upheld by men equally convinced that they've attained to God's teachings directly while the other is in error, right? That's where we ought to give an explanation of our faith which can then be verified against Scriptures, following the apostle Paul's pattern. I get where you're coming from and I do agree with the essence of it, but don't you find it unbalanced when you take it to the opposite extreme?

 

[Dave G]

What else is the job of a pastor or preacher if not to tell you what you should believe and why? It's one thing to ask every man to be fully persuaded in his own mind (Rom 14:5) but isn't it going against Scriptures to say one mustn't listen to any other man at all even to consider and confirm from Scriptures as the Berean church did?

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." ( Matthew 7:15 ).

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." ( Matthew 24:11 ).

Finally, Ephesians 4:11-16.

My question is - how do you discern when it is God saying something and when it is mere man saying something when God could use men to speak His truths or when you yourself a man could fall into error in your evaluation of what you think is from God Himself when it actually isn't?

" But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] [he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." ( 1 John 2:20-27 )

 

[ivdavid]

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.

Okay? The original question was what is the role of the pastor and teacher if we are not to let them try to teach us - and you reply citing their teachings against false prophets? If everything can be self-learned between man and God alone with no other teacher used as an instrument of God, why do we even need Scriptures? I don't get your extreme position. Why did Paul have to write to the Galatians warning and teaching them with ample reasons as to why and how they must discern against the false Gospel - by your standards, Paul should've just left them to God believing they will come to the truth eventually knowing falsehood by its fruits without any need for his exhortation. That's just plain high calvninism which is disobedient to Scriptural commands. Men can be and are used / commanded by God to proclaim and exhort the truth but it is God who gives growth. What of this do you disagree with?

Finally, Ephesians 4:11-16.

Yes, Finally. Pastors and Teachers are given for the edification of the church to come in unity of the one faith and truth in Christ, not being tossed about by every wind of false doctrines. How does this fit with your earlier statement that we shouldn't let them try to bring us to that one truth of doctrines? If you attend a local church and listen to your pastor's sermons, aren't you doing the very thing you're asking us not to do? Where's the disconnect?

and ye know all things....and ye need not that any man teach you

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Quite obviously some interpretative exegesis of texts are required. If John had felt that they didn't need any man to teach them, why was John himself teaching them so? In the OT, the common man was dependent on the teachers of the law to prescribe what was right and what they had to do - they were not privy to what the teachers knew. In the new covenant, God Himself affirms the truth in the spirit giving equal access to all believers - none greater or lesser than the other. The means of God doing so could still be through different parts of the body of Christ - the hand as the pastor and the eye as the teacher, all for the edification of the church.

 

[utilyan]

Thesis

Its all nonsense Steve, Lets look at your personal experience. Are you a Christian or not? Are you born again or not?

If your answer is yes, Well do you remember being mindwiped. Do you remember hating God and then against your will all the sudden you liked God.

Very important detail Do you remember HATING GOD and AGAINST YOUR WILL of HATING GOD were forced and mind-wiped into LOVING GOD?


What I see building up what is "suppose to happen" . Learning what is "supposed to happen". and then CROWD PLEASING folks by making up a story AFTERWARDS fitting the frame work of what is "supposed to happen".


Lets CUT THE BS. This is called self honesty and sincerity. <-- Something God is very patient with.

Are you born again, Are you christian, Do you love God? does God exist? I'm not talking about WANTING and HOPING.

If you are already born-again and converted, You got the direct details.


Its like if you were on a quest to find California. Getting there is born again.

OKAY you make it. You know the way, now your looking up maps on how to get to California.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Well heres a thesis on how to make it to California..... I thought you were here already!?!?

TO THYSELF BE TRUE. THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE.

Like if I get annoyed with God.......I Let God know I am annoyed with God.

He already knows what it is like to be exactly like you right right now.

 

[Yeshua1]

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." ( Matthew 7:15 ).

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." ( Matthew 24:11 ).

Finally, Ephesians 4:11-16.


" But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] [he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." ( 1 John 2:20-27 )

John was referring there though to us being able to discern between jesus the real messiah and false ones, not saying that none of us need to listen to pastors/teachers, as its nit "just my bible and Holy Spirit and me"

 

[Dave G]

Okay? The original question was what is the role of the pastor and teacher if we are not to let them try to teach us - and you reply citing their teachings against false prophets? If everything can be self-learned between man and God alone with no other teacher used as an instrument of God, why do we even need Scriptures? I don't get your extreme position.

What "extreme position"?

The reason I posted the false prophet passages, is to remind the reader that there are false teachers out there, all trying to teach people false doctrines.
So, the best thing that we as believers can do is to believe the Scriptures that tell us that we already have a dependable Teacher...

God's Spirit.

I'll post it again for those who may not see the significance of the words:

" But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] [he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." ( 1 John 2:20-27 )

John was referring there though to us being able to discern between jesus the real messiah and false ones, not saying that none of us need to listen to pastors/teachers, as its nit "just my bible and Holy Spirit and me"

When it comes to understanding God's words, it is "just my Bible, the Holy Spirit and me".
When it comes to God's people needing edification and having someone to show them where they can find the answers for themselves in God's word, pastors and teachers are a blessing and a God-given one, in order to help build them up in the faith and to watch over them.

God's teachers ( as opposed to false ones ) teach God's people the Scriptures, not "how to interpret the Bible".
They teach doctrine, they do not try to supercede or take the place of God's Spirit within us, as Teacher.
It's up to us as Christ's sheep to hear His voice...and hear it we will.

Each believer has within themselves, by the power of the Holy Ghost, the ability to read and understand their Saviour's words ( Matthew 13:10-11, 1 Corinthians 2:9-16, John 8:43-47, John 10:27, 1 John 2:20-27 ).
They don't need a "teacher" in the secular, "man-defined" sense.

The Holy Spirit nullifies "bible colleges", gentlemen....such things are the inventions of men, not God.
This modern system of men teaching other men how to understand the Scriptures is not God's way of doing things, I'm almost sorry to say.
It's man's way of trying to pass on knowledge to other men.

God's people have everything they need ( 2 Peter 1:3 ).
We as Christ's sheep have the privilege to go straight to the well of God's word, instead of "accepting the ladle" from men ( and nowadays even women ) who may or may not truly understand His words for themselves.

This is where Proverbs 3:5-6 comes into play.
Trust the Lord, gentlemen....not men for your understanding of His precious word.


Good evening to you, and may He bless you richly in your studies.

 

[Scott Downey]

What "extreme position"?

The reason I posted the false prophet passages, is to remind the reader that there are false teachers out there, all trying to teach people false doctrines.
So, the best thing that we as believers can do is to believe the Scriptures that tell us that we already have a dependable Teacher...

God's Spirit.

I'll post it again for those who may not see the significance of the words:

" But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] [he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." ( 1 John 2:20-27 )

When it comes to understanding God's words, it is "just my Bible, the Holy Spirit and me".
When it comes to God's people needing edification and having someone to show them where they can find the answers for themselves in God's word, pastors and teachers are a blessing and a God-given one, in order to help build them up in the faith and to watch over them.

God's teachers ( as opposed to false ones ) teach God's people the Scriptures, not "how to interpret the Bible".
They teach doctrine, they do not try to supercede or take the place of God's Spirit within us, as Teacher.
It's up to us as Christ's sheep to hear His voice...and hear it we will.

Each believer has within themselves, by the power of the Holy Ghost, the ability to read and understand their Saviour's words ( Matthew 13:10-11, 1 Corinthians 2:9-16, John 8:43-47, John 10:27, 1 John 2:20-27 ).
They don't need a "teacher" in the secular, "man-defined" sense.

The Holy Spirit nullifies "bible colleges", gentlemen....such things are the inventions of men, not God.
This modern system of men teaching other men how to understand the Scriptures is not God's way of doing things, I'm almost sorry to say.
It's man's way of trying to pass on knowledge to other men.

God's people have everything they need ( 2 Peter 1:3 ).
We as Christ's sheep have the privilege to go straight to the well of God's word, instead of "accepting the ladle" from men ( and nowadays even women ) who may or may not truly understand His words for themselves.

This is where Proverbs 3:5-6 comes into play.
Trust the Lord, gentlemen....not men for your understanding of His precious word.


Good evening to you, and may He bless you richly in your studies.

Jesus says beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. So this means the wolves you can find in the churches.
And so does Peter and John say the same thing calling them antichrists. If they went out from us, and did not continue with us, that means at one time they were in the church with us as antichrists, wolves or goats among the sheep.

And very good of you to mention the annointing to know the truth come from the Holy Spirit that guides the sheep of Christ into all truth abides with them and in them, so that they will come to Christ and be found faithful and come back to Christ if they stray from Him. Found further in 1 John 2
(For you have an anointing from the Holy One and you know all things and therefore you will abide in Him)

2 Peter 2 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

 

[Yeshua1]

What "extreme position"?

The reason I posted the false prophet passages, is to remind the reader that there are false teachers out there, all trying to teach people false doctrines.
So, the best thing that we as believers can do is to believe the Scriptures that tell us that we already have a dependable Teacher...

God's Spirit.

I'll post it again for those who may not see the significance of the words:

" But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] [he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." ( 1 John 2:20-27 )

When it comes to understanding God's words, it is "just my Bible, the Holy Spirit and me".
When it comes to God's people needing edification and having someone to show them where they can find the answers for themselves in God's word, pastors and teachers are a blessing and a God-given one, in order to help build them up in the faith and to watch over them.

God's teachers ( as opposed to false ones ) teach God's people the Scriptures, not "how to interpret the Bible".
They teach doctrine, they do not try to supercede or take the place of God's Spirit within us, as Teacher.
It's up to us as Christ's sheep to hear His voice...and hear it we will.

Each believer has within themselves, by the power of the Holy Ghost, the ability to read and understand their Saviour's words ( Matthew 13:10-11, 1 Corinthians 2:9-16, John 8:43-47, John 10:27, 1 John 2:20-27 ).
They don't need a "teacher" in the secular, "man-defined" sense.

The Holy Spirit nullifies "bible colleges", gentlemen....such things are the inventions of men, not God.
This modern system of men teaching other men how to understand the Scriptures is not God's way of doing things, I'm almost sorry to say.
It's man's way of trying to pass on knowledge to other men.

God's people have everything they need ( 2 Peter 1:3 ).
We as Christ's sheep have the privilege to go straight to the well of God's word, instead of "accepting the ladle" from men ( and nowadays even women ) who may or may not truly understand His words for themselves.

This is where Proverbs 3:5-6 comes into play.
Trust the Lord, gentlemen....not men for your understanding of His precious word.


Good evening to you, and may He bless you richly in your studies.

Do we use Good commentaries, Greek and Hebrew lexicons, etc then?

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus says beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. So this means the wolves you can find in the churches.
And so does Peter and John say the same thing calling them antichrists. If they went out from us, and did not continue with us, that means at one time they were in the church with us as antichrists, wolves or goats among the sheep.

And very good of you to mention the annointing to know the truth come from the Holy Spirit that guides the sheep of Christ into all truth abides with them and in them, so that they will come to Christ and be found faithful and come back to Christ if they stray from Him. Found further in 1 John 2
(For you have an anointing from the Holy One and you know all things and therefore you will abide in Him)

2 Peter 2 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

that anointing by the Holy Spirit John mentions there though does not mean just me and my Bible and Spirit make 3, as in all we need, as Paul stated that God also gave to us gifted men to instruct and teach us what the scriptures teach!

 

[Yeshua1]

What "extreme position"?

The reason I posted the false prophet passages, is to remind the reader that there are false teachers out there, all trying to teach people false doctrines.
So, the best thing that we as believers can do is to believe the Scriptures that tell us that we already have a dependable Teacher...

God's Spirit.

I'll post it again for those who may not see the significance of the words:

" But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] [he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." ( 1 John 2:20-27 )

When it comes to understanding God's words, it is "just my Bible, the Holy Spirit and me".
When it comes to God's people needing edification and having someone to show them where they can find the answers for themselves in God's word, pastors and teachers are a blessing and a God-given one, in order to help build them up in the faith and to watch over them.

God's teachers ( as opposed to false ones ) teach God's people the Scriptures, not "how to interpret the Bible".
They teach doctrine, they do not try to supercede or take the place of God's Spirit within us, as Teacher.
It's up to us as Christ's sheep to hear His voice...and hear it we will.

Each believer has within themselves, by the power of the Holy Ghost, the ability to read and understand their Saviour's words ( Matthew 13:10-11, 1 Corinthians 2:9-16, John 8:43-47, John 10:27, 1 John 2:20-27 ).
They don't need a "teacher" in the secular, "man-defined" sense.

The Holy Spirit nullifies "bible colleges", gentlemen....such things are the inventions of men, not God.
This modern system of men teaching other men how to understand the Scriptures is not God's way of doing things, I'm almost sorry to say.
It's man's way of trying to pass on knowledge to other men.

God's people have everything they need ( 2 Peter 1:3 ).
We as Christ's sheep have the privilege to go straight to the well of God's word, instead of "accepting the ladle" from men ( and nowadays even women ) who may or may not truly understand His words for themselves.

This is where Proverbs 3:5-6 comes into play.
Trust the Lord, gentlemen....not men for your understanding of His precious word.


Good evening to you, and may He bless you richly in your studies.

How about reading various Systematic theologies, and other biblical works on the scriptures?

 

[utilyan]

What "extreme position"?

The reason I posted the false prophet passages, is to remind the reader that there are false teachers out there, all trying to teach people false doctrines.
So, the best thing that we as believers can do is to believe the Scriptures that tell us that we already have a dependable Teacher...

God's Spirit.

I'll post it again for those who may not see the significance of the words:

" But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] [he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." ( 1 John 2:20-27 )

When it comes to understanding God's words, it is "just my Bible, the Holy Spirit and me".
When it comes to God's people needing edification and having someone to show them where they can find the answers for themselves in God's word, pastors and teachers are a blessing and a God-given one, in order to help build them up in the faith and to watch over them.

God's teachers ( as opposed to false ones ) teach God's people the Scriptures, not "how to interpret the Bible".
They teach doctrine, they do not try to supercede or take the place of God's Spirit within us, as Teacher.
It's up to us as Christ's sheep to hear His voice...and hear it we will.

Each believer has within themselves, by the power of the Holy Ghost, the ability to read and understand their Saviour's words ( Matthew 13:10-11, 1 Corinthians 2:9-16, John 8:43-47, John 10:27, 1 John 2:20-27 ).
They don't need a "teacher" in the secular, "man-defined" sense.

The Holy Spirit nullifies "bible colleges", gentlemen....such things are the inventions of men, not God.
This modern system of men teaching other men how to understand the Scriptures is not God's way of doing things, I'm almost sorry to say.
It's man's way of trying to pass on knowledge to other men.

God's people have everything they need ( 2 Peter 1:3 ).
We as Christ's sheep have the privilege to go straight to the well of God's word, instead of "accepting the ladle" from men ( and nowadays even women ) who may or may not truly understand His words for themselves.

This is where Proverbs 3:5-6 comes into play.
Trust the Lord, gentlemen....not men for your understanding of His precious word.


Good evening to you, and may He bless you richly in your studies.

What is the use of a false teacher if someone is ALREADY TOTALLY DEPRAVED? Under your theology if God wants someone to be saved it will be forced irregardless the idea of even having "warnings" is a joke, you might as well warn of anything unthinkable for that matter, like a cheeseburger might eat you instead! Which the evil cheeseburger will make you just as much more "totally depraved" and the death crystals of strawberries ensure your damnation.