I will answer in a few hours....Van has also jumped in.
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God never designed or purposed to Save ALL men ever born.
- Thread starter Iconoclast
- Start date
"37818,
Sure...you are totally inconsistent.We were discussing 1 Tim.4:10
you avoided the text totally...Do not jump all over the place.
from post 86; You said;
[QUOTE]We seem to differ in in some way our unnderstanding of Jesus being Savior of all men. I do not understand that to mean universalism.[/QUOTE]
Now you are saying He bought on behalf of.....all men that believe???
That is not ALL men.
The text says He is the Saviour of All men
You say-all men that believe.....well not everyone believes
So now I need you to explain how you limit the text. I can explain both parts of 1Tim.4:10...you cannot, and are running away from it.
So in what possible way can He be said to be the Saviour of "all" men?
Do you see the issue yet?
I see my view as consistent. Please specifically point out what you see as inconsistant in my view. Please quote me against a passage of Scripture.
Sure...you are totally inconsistent.We were discussing 1 Tim.4:10
you avoided the text totally...Do not jump all over the place.
from post 86; You said;
[QUOTE]We seem to differ in in some way our unnderstanding of Jesus being Savior of all men. I do not understand that to mean universalism.[/QUOTE]
Now you are saying He bought on behalf of.....all men that believe???
That is not ALL men.
The text says He is the Saviour of All men
You say-all men that believe.....well not everyone believes
So now I need you to explain how you limit the text. I can explain both parts of 1Tim.4:10...you cannot, and are running away from it.
So in what possible way can He be said to be the Saviour of "all" men?
Do you see the issue yet?
Last edited:
"Van,
Hello Van, I hope you are enjoying good health, in the providence of God.
Now let's see if you can add to this topic?
An off-topic post, this does not seem to help.
3) God elects for salvation those whose faith He credits as righteousness, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 4:4-5, 4:23-24
Not only is this off-topic, but this is still the ludicrous idea of a god looking around, to find men he can credit as if this is valid.
Only one person I know of believes such a thing.
4) The people whose lives are at stake are those God has not yet given to the Son. John 6:37[/QUOTE]
This is a foolish non-biblical fiction.
There are no such people whose lives are at stake.
God the Father has already given All He intends to give to
the Son.
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Biblical Christians rejoice in this , others invent novelties to avoid the clear teaching of the truth of Grace.
Hello Van, I hope you are enjoying good health, in the providence of God.
Now let's see if you can add to this topic?
1) Adam fell and as a consequence God ordained all people be "made sinners." Romans 5:19
An off-topic post, this does not seem to help.
These texts speak of those who believe worldwide, Kings, those in authority, all believing persons worldwide.2) God desires all people to be saved, but according to His criteria of belief in His Son. 1 Timothy 2:4, John 3:16
3) God elects for salvation those whose faith He credits as righteousness, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 4:4-5, 4:23-24
Not only is this off-topic, but this is still the ludicrous idea of a god looking around, to find men he can credit as if this is valid.
Only one person I know of believes such a thing.
4) The people whose lives are at stake are those God has not yet given to the Son. John 6:37[/QUOTE]
This is a foolish non-biblical fiction.
There are no such people whose lives are at stake.
God the Father has already given All He intends to give to
the Son.
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Biblical Christians rejoice in this , others invent novelties to avoid the clear teaching of the truth of Grace.
Jonathan Edwards points out the judgments of God against the non elect promote redemption of the elect godly seed..
And therefore, God's destroying those enemies of the church by the flood belongs to this affair of redemption; for it was one thing that was done in fulfilment of the covenant of grace, as it was revealed to Adam: "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head." 616616 Gen. iii. 15. This was only a destruction of the seed of the serpent in the midst of their most violent rage against the seed of the woman, when in the utmost peril by them. We read in Scripture of scarce any destruction of nations but that one main reason given for it is, their enmity and injuries against God s church; and doubtless this was one main reason of the destruction of all nations by the flood. The giants that were in those days, in all likelihood, got themselves renown by their great exploits against heaven, and against Christ and his church, the remaining sons of God that had not corrupted themselves. We read, that just before the world shall be destroyed by fire, "the nations that are in the four quarters of the earth, shall gather together against the church as the sand of the sea, and shall go up on the breadth of the earth, and compass the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city; and then fire shall come down from God out of heaven, and devour them," Rev. xx. 8, 9. And it seems there was that which was very parallel to it, just before the world was destroyed by water. And therefore their destruction was a work of God that did as much belong to the work of redemption, as the destruction of the Egyptians belonged to the redemption of the children of Israel out of Egypt, or as the destruction of Sennacherib's mighty army, that had compassed about Jerusalem to destroy it, belonged to God's redemption of that city from them. By means of this flood, all the enemies of God's church, against whom that little handful had no strength, were swept off at once. God took their part, appeared for them against their enemies, and drowned those of whom they had been afraid, in the flood of water, as he drowned the enemies of Israel that pursued them in the Red sea. Indeed God could have taken other methods to deliver his church: he could have converted all the world instead of drowning it; and so he could have taken another method than drowning the Egyptians in the Red sea. But that is no argument, that the method he did take, was not a method to show his redeeming mercy to them. By the deluge the enemies of
. By means of this flood, all the enemies of God's church, against whom that little handful had no strength, were swept off at once. God took their part, appeared for them against their enemies, and drowned those of whom they had been afraid, in the flood of water, as he drowned the enemies of Israel that pursued them in the Red sea.
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Indeed God could have taken other methods to deliver his church: he could have converted all the world instead of drowning it; and so he could have taken another method than drowning the Egyptians in the Red sea. But that is no argument, that the method he did take, was not a method to show his redeeming mercy to them.
And therefore, God's destroying those enemies of the church by the flood belongs to this affair of redemption; for it was one thing that was done in fulfilment of the covenant of grace, as it was revealed to Adam: "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head." 616616 Gen. iii. 15. This was only a destruction of the seed of the serpent in the midst of their most violent rage against the seed of the woman, when in the utmost peril by them. We read in Scripture of scarce any destruction of nations but that one main reason given for it is, their enmity and injuries against God s church; and doubtless this was one main reason of the destruction of all nations by the flood. The giants that were in those days, in all likelihood, got themselves renown by their great exploits against heaven, and against Christ and his church, the remaining sons of God that had not corrupted themselves. We read, that just before the world shall be destroyed by fire, "the nations that are in the four quarters of the earth, shall gather together against the church as the sand of the sea, and shall go up on the breadth of the earth, and compass the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city; and then fire shall come down from God out of heaven, and devour them," Rev. xx. 8, 9. And it seems there was that which was very parallel to it, just before the world was destroyed by water. And therefore their destruction was a work of God that did as much belong to the work of redemption, as the destruction of the Egyptians belonged to the redemption of the children of Israel out of Egypt, or as the destruction of Sennacherib's mighty army, that had compassed about Jerusalem to destroy it, belonged to God's redemption of that city from them. By means of this flood, all the enemies of God's church, against whom that little handful had no strength, were swept off at once. God took their part, appeared for them against their enemies, and drowned those of whom they had been afraid, in the flood of water, as he drowned the enemies of Israel that pursued them in the Red sea. Indeed God could have taken other methods to deliver his church: he could have converted all the world instead of drowning it; and so he could have taken another method than drowning the Egyptians in the Red sea. But that is no argument, that the method he did take, was not a method to show his redeeming mercy to them. By the deluge the enemies of
. By means of this flood, all the enemies of God's church, against whom that little handful had no strength, were swept off at once. God took their part, appeared for them against their enemies, and drowned those of whom they had been afraid, in the flood of water, as he drowned the enemies of Israel that pursued them in the Red sea.
\
Indeed God could have taken other methods to deliver his church: he could have converted all the world instead of drowning it; and so he could have taken another method than drowning the Egyptians in the Red sea. But that is no argument, that the method he did take, was not a method to show his redeeming mercy to them.
II. Another thing belonging to the same work, was God's wonderfully preserving that family of which the Redeemer was to proceed, when all the rest of the world was drowned. God's drowning the world, and saving Noah and his family, were both reducible to this great work. The saving of Noah and his family belonged to it two ways, viz. as from that family the Redeemer was to proceed, and it was the mystical body of Christ that was there saved. The manner of saving those persons, when all the world besides was so overthrown, was very wonderful. It was a wonderful type of the redemption of Christ, of that redemption that is sealed by the baptism of water, and is so spoken of in the New Testament, as 1 Pet. iii. 20, 21. "Which sometimes were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. The like figure whereunto, even baptism, doth also now save us, (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." That water which washed away the filth of the world, that cleared the world of wicked men, was a type of the blood of Christ, that takes away the sin of the world. That water which delivered Noah and his sons from their enemies, is a type of the blood that delivers God's church from their sins, their worst enemies. That water which was so plentiful and abundant, that it filled the world, and reached above the tops of the highest mountains, was a type of that blood, which is sufficient for the whole world; sufficient to bury the highest mountains of sin. The ark, that was the refuge and hiding-place of the church in this time of storm and flood, was a type of Christ, the true hiding-place of the church from the storms and floods of God's wrath.