God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved

[Steven Yeadon]

Steven,
I'm not surprised.

As it is, two decades ago I would have disagreed with myself.


Question:
Is the "usward" ( in the KJV ) and the "you" in the NASB speaking about all men, or the beloved from the previous verse?
Also, are the "any" and the "all" with respect to all men everywhere, or again, is it in context with the "beloved" in verse 8?

I interpret that as God is being patient towards giving the saints justice, because He desires salvation for all. I have applied this verse into my tragedy of a life. When prayers for justice go unanswered, I know there is the salvation of my enemies in the balance. I do pray for my enemies salvation and that they are blessed. So, when they go unpunished for grievous sins I remember to have mercy and grace until His patience is exhausted.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Unless one understands that God not being a "respecter of person" means that He does not respect anyone's efforts to please Him, gain His favor, or work for their salvation...
nor does He respect any man's health, wealth, genetics, or heritage when it comes to who He makes the recipients of the new birth ( John 1:13 ).

I don't believe that John 1:13 refers to believers, but to Jesus Christ, where the singluar reading has been corrupted to the plural

 

[SavedByGrace]

Respectfully, I don't see it as "very simple".

To me, the context of the "all men" in 1 Timothy 2:1 is the "all that are in authority" in verse 2.
Similarly, the context of the "all men" in verse 4 is the "all men" in verses 1-2, as well as the "all men that are among you" from passages like Romans 12:3.

The very same "world" that God so loved in John 3:16 ( because God hates the worker of iniquity, Psalms 5:5, Psalms 11:5 ) is the same "world" found in Romans 11:15, Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9, and 1 Corinthians 1:24, and is the same world that he sent His Son to die for...
His people ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11 ) out of every tongue, tribe and nation.

From my perspective, you're not taking into account election, predestination, calling and so forth.
Taking those into account ( especially Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9, Romans 11:7-8, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and many more ), brings out a massive contradiction between what God's word says about desiring all men to be saved ( 1 verse ) and God being selective about who He saves ( many verses ).

The way I see it, any other explanation gives us a contradiction and the passages will not harmonize.
However, you have the right to understand it the way you wish.
Personally, I believe that the Lord resolved this for me recently, and I admit that it is not easy to understand for anyone.


But, given that you disagree...
And since you seem to see it so "simply", why is it that God desires each and every man, woman and child to be saved, but most will end up in Hell?
Free will?
I'll need to see the Scriptures for that.


In the mean time, we can go over the Scriptures together, that plainly declare why some believe on Christ and why others do not...
and it doesn't have anything to do with our choice to accept or reject Him.

It focuses on election and God choosing, @SavedByGrace .

looks like you are more interested in your theological position, than what the Bible actually says. There is no point in any further on this, as I have said all that I need to.

 

[Dave G]

I don't believe that John 1:13 refers to believers, but to Jesus Christ, where the singluar reading has been corrupted to the plural

Looking carefully at the language in the verse, I clearly see that the new birth is of God...not by blood, by the will of men, nor by the will of the flesh.

I don't understand it any other way.

looks like you are more interested in your theological position, than what the Bible actually says.

With respect, my theological position was developed strictly from reading God's word.

There is no point in any further on this, as I have said all that I need to.

I agree.
To me, the Bible actually says that God chooses sinners to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ), that believers were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4 ) and that only the foreknown will ever experience the benefits of being predestinated as conformed to the image of Christ, being called by the power of the Spirit, being justified by His grace, His blood and by faith, and someday being glorified with new bodies that do not sin ( Romans 8:28-30 ).

Therefore, if God truly desired all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, as the passage in 1 Timothy seems to say when isolated to the exclusion of other Scriptures which speak to the same subject, then God's will is split between being selective in who He saves ( Romans 9 ) and not being selective.
I for one cannot dismiss "unconditional election", because to me, there are far too many passages that describe it in no uncertain terms.


I've said all that I think should be said.
I wish you well.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Looking carefully at the language in the verse, I clearly see that the new birth is of God...not by blood, by the will of men, nor by the will of the flesh.

Some points on this

1. Instead of the plural reading, "οἳ οὐκ... ἐγεννήθησαν", there is another which is just as old, and according to Tertullian, the original, is, "ὃς οὐκ... ἐγεννήθη" (Who was begotten)

2. "not of blood", the the Greek is, "ουκ εξ αιματων", which is plural, "not out of bloods", which shows the exclusion of the male sex, which is seen further

3. in the use of, "ουδε εκ θεληματος σαρκος", "nor of the desire of the MALE", where the masculine is used, to exclude the human father.

The Jerusalem Bible is probably the only English version that has this reading, "who was born not out of human stock or urge of the flesh or will of man but of God himself"

the language of the text supports the reading referring to Jesus Christ, and His Virgin Birth.

 

[Iconoclast]

When Paul says in 1 Timothy 1:15, "Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief". Does he here mean that Jesus Christ came into the world to save "the elect"? If this is the case, then are we to conclude that those who are the "non-elect", are not "sinners"? And, in Romans 5:6, Paul says that Jesus died for the "ungodly", if this is exclusive for the "elect", then all the "non-elect" must be "godly"! In 1 Peter 3:18, we read, "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous". Are we here to believe that the "unrighteous", for whom Christ suffered for their sins, are to be restricted to the "elect", only, again, this would mean that those who are the "non-elect", must be "righteous"! The "theories" of the Reformed/Calvinstic theology are clear when compared to what the Bible actually Teaches.

In every verse listed,only the elect are in view. Now you are getting it.

 

[SavedByGrace]

In every verse listed,only the elect are in view. Now you are getting it.

you are blinded to the Truth by your theology!

 

[AustinC]

you are blinded to the Truth by your theology!

LOL

 

[Yeshua1]

Some points on this

1. Instead of the plural reading, "οἳ οὐκ... ἐγεννήθησαν", there is another which is just as old, and according to Tertullian, the original, is, "ὃς οὐκ... ἐγεννήθη" (Who was begotten)

2. "not of blood", the the Greek is, "ουκ εξ αιματων", which is plural, "not out of bloods", which shows the exclusion of the male sex, which is seen further

3. in the use of, "ουδε εκ θεληματος σαρκος", "nor of the desire of the MALE", where the masculine is used, to exclude the human father.

The Jerusalem Bible is probably the only English version that has this reading, "who was born not out of human stock or urge of the flesh or will of man but of God himself"

the language of the text supports the reading referring to Jesus Christ, and His Virgin Birth.

It seems to better support us who are nor born again in Christ though!

 

[SavedByGrace]

It seems to better support us who are nor born again in Christ though!

you cannot account for the use of "bloods" in the plural, and "male", if the reference is to believers instead of Jesus

 

[atpollard]

Here we have one of the clearest passages in the Bible, for the Universal Death for the Salvation of the entire human race. This is known as "pontential" salvation.

1. I think you mean POTENTIAL salvation ("pontential" isn't listed in the dictionary, but this is the second time I have seen it spelled that way).
2. Setting spelling aside ... If God wants to save the entire human race, then why doesn't God save the entire human race?

 

[SavedByGrace]

POTENTIAL salvation

thanks, must be my age!

 

[SavedByGrace]

If God wants to save the entire human race, then why doesn't God save the entire human race?

It is like saying, if God did not want man to sin against Him and fall away from fellowship with Him, in the Garden, then, since He is all knowing, why did He not stop this? Or, that the devil would cause so much wickedness and sin for thousands of years in this world, why did God simply not destroy the devil?

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore CHOOSE life, that you and your offspring may live" (Deut. 30:19)

ALL humans have to CHOOSE whether they will follow the Lord or not, as with the time of Elijah and the false prophets of baal

"Then Elijah approached all the people and said, “How long will you hesitate between two opinions (CHOOSE)? If Yahweh is God, follow Him. But if Baal, follow him.” But the people didn’t answer him a word." (1 Kings 18:21)

Same CHOICE is for all sinners today, Jesus Christ, or the devil. Nothing has changed!

 

[Yeshua1]

It is like saying, if God did not want man to sin against Him and fall away from fellowship with Him, in the Garden, then, since He is all knowing, why did He not stop this? Or, that the devil would cause so much wickedness and sin for thousands of years in this world, why did God simply not destroy the devil?

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore CHOOSE life, that you and your offspring may live" (Deut. 30:19)

ALL humans have to CHOOSE whether they will follow the Lord or not, as with the time of Elijah and the false prophets of baal

"Then Elijah approached all the people and said, “How long will you hesitate between two opinions (CHOOSE)? If Yahweh is God, follow Him. But if Baal, follow him.” But the people didn’t answer him a word." (1 Kings 18:21)

Same CHOICE is for all sinners today, Jesus Christ, or the devil. Nothing has changed!

All of us are born as sinners, and already in the Kingdom of darkness, so we need God Himself to intervene to save us, as we cannoli decide that by ourselves!

 

[atpollard]

It is like saying, if God did not want man to sin against Him and fall away from fellowship with Him, in the Garden, then, since He is all knowing, why did He not stop this?

God COULD have prevented the fall if God really wanted to prevent the fall. The angel with the flaming sword that prevented return to Eden, could have prevented access to the tree. Since God DID NOT prevent access to the tree, I do not claim that it was God’s plan that people not access the tree.

Since God chose not to save all, I do not claim that it is God’s plan to save all.

God CAN do anything, so what God DOES do must be what God intends to do.

 

[SavedByGrace]

God COULD have prevented the fall if God really wanted to prevent the fall. The angel with the flaming sword that prevented return to Eden, could have prevented access to the tree. Since God DID NOT prevent access to the tree, I do not claim that it was God’s plan that people not access the tree.

Since God chose not to save all, I do not claim that it is God’s plan to save all.

God CAN do anything, so what God DOES do must be what God intends to do.

Has God changed?

"21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins (REPENTS) that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live ; he shall not die (BE SAVED). 22 None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?" (Ezekiel 18)

THIS IS THE GOSPEL MESSAGE! Nothing has changed with the Lord, only with "theology" that is man-made!

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 9:40 PM Pacific.

 

[atpollard]

Has God changed?

"21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins (REPENTS) that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live ; he shall not die (BE SAVED). 22 None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?" (Ezekiel 18)

THIS IS THE GOSPEL MESSAGE! Nothing has changed with the Lord, only with "theology" that is man-made!

I believe that I am still waiting for that generation that CHOSE to obey. All the generations that I can remember reading about CHOSE to be unfaithful and disobedient.

That said, I have no disagreement with the quoted verse. I do not think that God delights in evil or draws pleasure from punishing sin. I think that people are VERY VERY stubborn and only an act of God will change a heart of stone into “good soil”. IF a God will give the gift of faith, then the wicked person will turn from his sins.

 

[AustinC]

Has God changed?

"21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins (REPENTS) that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live ; he shall not die (BE SAVED). 22 None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?" (Ezekiel 18)

THIS IS THE GOSPEL MESSAGE! Nothing has changed with the Lord, only with "theology" that is man-made!

Sigh, I have already pointed out why Ezekiel 18 is not about salvation of the soul, nor is it a message to the non-elect. You are misinterpreting Ezekiel 18 and thus your prooftext is a false assertion by you.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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