God responsible for evil?

[standingfirminChrist]

Amen Marcia!

The thing is, if people can convince that evil (moral sin) was created by God, then they don't have to feel remorse for evil acts. 'After all, God created evil', seems to be what the statement is.

Back in the 70's it was Flip Wilson's famous quote, 'The devil made me do it'.

Now, there is no shame whatsoever for sin, because supposedly, 'God created me with that gene', or 'God loves me just as I am'. Hogwash!

 

[russell55]

But if God ordains something, does that mean he makes people do things?

No. Some things, evil things, God ordains to come about by way of his permission. All systems of theology--at least all of those that deal in any way with God's decrees--say that God decreed (or ordained) the fall, for instance, but all of them have that decree be a decree of permission.

God is not the direct cause of any evil act, but decreeing to permit a certain evil act is a cause of that act, just not the direct cause. God choosing to allow a specific act makes it certain that it will occur, and if he chose not to allow it, it certainly would not occur. In that way God's decision regarding that act is a cause of the act, because whether that act occurs or not is dependent on what decision God makes regarding it--whether to allow it or not.

That's the reason that Acts can use such strong language regarding God's role in the evil acts of those who crucified Christ. Those acts were "God's definite plan," and what was done by Herod, Pontius Pilate, etc was "predestined by God's plan" (Acts 2 and 4). They were predestined (or decreed or ordained) acts brought about by God's permission.

 

[russell55]

Of course, a God ordained good act is worked through the agency of the Holy Spirit. It is more directly caused by God.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
I think all of the following mean the same thing, that God did create evil.

1) Created the Angels with the ability to stand against Him,

2) Created man with free will so he could chose to sin, and

3) Predestined evil acts.

It's really just dancing around the question to draw a distinction between giving man the freedom to sin and creating evil. He created man and the angels and if He had not given them the choice there wouldn't have been any evil, ever.

Again, as I said before, if God didn't create something then who did?

But creating a creature who can choose to sin is not the same as saying that God created evil since evil cannot be "created" like the sun, moon, earth, oceans, animals, or people. It's an action.

Does God allow evil acts to be committed? Yes, He clearly does. But that is not the same as bringing them about or causing them. If it were, we would have to say God causes abortions, murders, rapes, etc., which is an abhorrent view. </font>[/QUOTE]I would agree that creating a creature that can do evil is not quite the same as creating evil but there's a fine line because God knew that man would turn from Him. So He did an act that He knew would result in evil.

In the end, if God didn't create evil initially who did?

 

[russell55]

In the end, if God didn't create evil initially who did?

I don't think evil is a created thing. It is caused, but not created.

God, as the first cause of everything that exists, is certainly the first cause of evil. He isn't the active agent in anything evil, though. The Holy Spirit doesn't move people to do evil.

 

[Marcia]

I agree with Russell that evil is not a created thing, so God did not create it.

Man (and some angels) committed evil by rebelling against God. I am not sure if God is the first cause of evil, unless that means that God allowed evil, which is what I think Russell is saying. But that is different from saying God created evil, as Russell points out.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by Marcia:
I agree with Russell that evil is not a created thing, so God did not create it.

Man (and some angels) committed evil by rebelling against God. I am not sure if God is the first cause of evil, unless that means that God allowed evil, which is what I think Russell is saying. But that is different from saying God created evil, as Russell points out.

I agree with both you and Russell. Cain murdering Abel was the first instance of murder. Did God create murder, or did Cain? If God created murder, He forced Cain to kill Abel, which goes against His being.

 

[bjonson]

Originally posted by Marcia:
bjonson, God was not surprised.

But if God ordains something, does that mean he makes people do things? He did not force anyone to condemn Jesus and put him on the cross. So whether you call that ordaning or not, men chose to do what they did.

How God works out things is beyond our knowledge, but I do not believe God ordains sin in the sense that he forces men to sin. That would violate the character of God, imo.

Marcia,

You asked if God ordains something does that mean He makes people do certain things. Please look at this article and then share what you think:

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/suffering/god_and_evil.html

 

[russell55]

I am not sure if God is the first cause of evil, unless that means that God allowed evil

It means that, in the very least, God set the ball rolling in creating a world that would certainly produce evil.

The proximate cause of any evil act is not God. The proximate cause is rather the choice of the particular created being doing the evil act. But when God chooses not to restrain specific evil acts, those evil acts follow certainly from his choice not to restrain them. And in that sense, God is a cause of that evil act.

An example from scripture would be Isaiah 10, where the text says that God is going to send the King of Assyria and his armies up against Israel to plunder and destroy it. I don't think for a second that God directly influenced the King of Assyria in that evil act. He chose to allow it--and I would argue that he probably let up on his previous restraining of evil in the King's heart--so that those evil acts would take place in accordance with His perfect plan to use the King of Assyria as his instrument of the judgment of Israel. And that makes God enough of a cause of the King of Assyria's evil acts that the text can rightly say that God sent him.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by bjonson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Marcia:
bjonson, God was not surprised.

But if God ordains something, does that mean he makes people do things? He did not force anyone to condemn Jesus and put him on the cross. So whether you call that ordaning or not, men chose to do what they did.

How God works out things is beyond our knowledge, but I do not believe God ordains sin in the sense that he forces men to sin. That would violate the character of God, imo.

Marcia,

You asked if God ordains something does that mean He makes people do certain things. Please look at this article and then share what you think:

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/suffering/god_and_evil.html </font>[/QUOTE]Interesting argument. I don't find the following part to be very compelling for me, however.

What this means is that we must learn that God wills things in two different senses. The Bible demands this by the way it speaks of God's will in different ways. Edwards uses the terms "will of decree" and "will of command."

Edwards explains:
[God's] will of decree [or sovereign will] is not his will in the same sense as his will of command [or moral will] is. Therefore it is not difficult at all to suppose that the one may be otherwise than the other: his will in both senses is his inclination. But when we say he wills virtue, or loves virtue or the happiness of his creature; thereby is intended that virtue or the creature's happiness, absolutely and simply considered, is agreeable to the inclination of his nature.

His will of decree is his inclination to a thing not as to that thing absolutely and simply, but with reference to the universality of things. So God, though he hates a thing as it is simply, may incline to it with reference to the universality of things.

My take is that Edward's came up with some rather flimsey definitions to get around the problem. It's in areas like this that I believe we don't really understand God's ways and should leave it at that.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

 

[reformedbeliever]

God made all the material for sin... (that which is against God's nature) but God did not manufacture sin. An example is that God made the material for man to be able to manufacture an automobile. God did not manufacture the automobile... man did. God made the possibility of sin (free agency) but man manufactured it when he chose against God.

 

[Timtoolman]

If God is exercising meticulous sovereignty over the will then there is only one will - God's. Undoubtedly God is sovereign over the will but He does not have to exercise that authority in order to be sovereign. Much as a King is sovereign over the people he rules (only God to a greater degree). If there is only one will then there is only one consciousness - God's. If there is only one will then there is no such thing as 'right' and 'wrong'. If there is only one path in existence and one location then what is the wrong path? There is none because 'a wrong path' presuppose at the very least two paths. If God is exercising meticulous sovereignty then there is no such thing as evil.

 

[Me4Him]

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, (Satan) and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. (note where the "iniquity" was found)

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.


16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightnessPride) I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

God has given the angels of heaven the right to excercise their "FREE WILL", along with "MAN".

And a third of the angels chose to follow Satan, rather than God.

Re 12:4 And his tail (Satan) drew the third part of the stars of heaven,(angels) and did cast them to the earth:

Satan desired to be "god".

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart,(where does sin originate, HEART) I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: (angels) I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

And what was Satan's promise to Adam/Eve if they would eat of the tree??

Ge 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Satan wasn't satisfied to let God be God, and he had the "FREE WILL" to "CHOSE", then "CON" Adam/Eve into making the same decision.

Now the question becomes,

WHY did God make it possible for both Angels/Man to "CHOSE" between obeying God and "being their own god"??

Until you can answer that question, you'll never understand Sovereign or Free will.

 

[Marcia]

bjonson, I read the article though not as carefully as I would like since I don't have the time. I agree with StraighandNarrow that there are semantics issues with it. At one point, Edwards says that God is not the author of sin, but then he seems to say God is controlling everything with the implication that God is causing people to do evil acts. Maybe I read it wrong but that's what I saw.

I still believe that God permits evil for his own purposes but he is not causing men to commit evil acts.

I think Russell's view is closest to mine.

 

[Word Walker]

Hi guys,
After reading through this topic, I would have to agree with Me4Him, and Marsha.
Someone posted, "God started the ball rolling . . ."
I would have to say that God started the ball rolling for His glory. That's the reason for the entire creation (including angels and man). For God to gain maximum glory, He had to put free will in the mix -- as opposed to robotic obeisience (Where's the glory in that?).

The origin of evil? I believe Isa.14:13 answers that question. It came from the self-centered heart of an annointed, once-perfect angel who exercised his ability to choose.
God created the angel. The angel chose evil.
God is not responsible for Satan's choice.
Anyway, that's what I think.
In Christ,
Word Walker

 

[russell55]

I think Russell's view is closest to mine.

And I agree with what Jonathan Edwards said....

In the whole passage quoted from, Jonathan Edwards says that no one ever defines what being the "Author of Sin" is. It's just bandied about as some sort of terrible accusation without anyone saying exactly what it would take from God in order for that term to be rightly used of him.

If by the Author of Sin be meant the Sinner, the Agent, or the Actor of Sin, or the Doer of a wicked thing; so it would be a reproach and blasphemy, to suppose God to be the Author of Sin. In this sense, I utterly deny God to be the Author of Sin; rejecting such an imputation on the Most High, as what is infinitely to be abhorred; and deny any such thing to be the consequence of what I have laid down.

In other words, Jonathan Edwards denies that God is either doing the sin, or influencing people toward sin. He doesn't make people sin. He's not causing people to sin, at least using that word the way I think you're using it.

Edwards goes on to say that if by "Author of Sin"m one means that God is

the permitter, or not a hinderer of Sin;

and that he permits or doesn't hinder a sin knowingly--in other words, God understands that if he doesn't hinder a particular sin, then it will certainly happen--then God is the" Author of Sin."

I don't really see how anyone of any persuasion except an Open Theist can get around this. God knows what sins will certainly come about through the free actions of human beings unless he intervenes. He knowingly chooses when to intervene to restrain sin, and when to permit it.

Edwards also says that God disposes the state of events--he chooses when to intervene and when not to--

for wise, holy, and most excellent ends and purposes...

I'm not sure how anyone can get around this, either. God is a purposeful God, and he has reasons for every choice he makes, so when he chooses not to intervene to prevent sin, he has "excellent ends and purposes" in mind.

If this is what is meant someone means when they say someone is making God the Author of Sin--that God chooses to permit particular sins for his own good purposes, then Jonathan Edwards does not "deny that God is the Author of Sin," although he rejects the phrase, because it most often carries the idea of God influencing people to sin.

 

[bjonson]

In light of this discussion, what do you all think of this:

"And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left; and the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has declared disaster for you.”" (1 Kings 22:19-23, ESV)

 

[bjonson]

Originally posted by Word Walker:
Hi guys,
After reading through this topic, I would have to agree with Me4Him, and Marsha.
Someone posted, "God started the ball rolling . . ."
I would have to say that God started the ball rolling for His glory. That's the reason for the entire creation (including angels and man). For God to gain maximum glory, He had to put free will in the mix -- as opposed to robotic obeisience (Where's the glory in that?).

The origin of evil? I believe Isa.14:13 answers that question. It came from the self-centered heart of an annointed, once-perfect angel who exercised his ability to choose.
God created the angel. The angel chose evil.
God is not responsible for Satan's choice.
Anyway, that's what I think.
In Christ,
Word Walker

Word Walker,

What is preventing the angels who didn't fall and are currently serving God from falling? Do they still have the "free will" to rebel, as Lucifer did?

 

[Me4Him]

What amazes me is that the answer is right in front of "everyone", but they can't "SEE IT".

Ro 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Mt 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice,

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

All three of these verse are describing "LOVE", with different names, Mercy, Grace, Gift.

Love can't be "programmed", Mercy, Grace, Gift, are not under "obligation", to or from, anyone.

Just as God is not, can not be programmed (obligated) to love us

neither can we, nor are we, programmed to love God.

We are just as free to give our love to whom we chose as God is to give his love to whom he choses

That's the Nature of love explained in the above verses,

it's a "FREE WILL" exchange between both Man and God.

And that's the whole "theme" thoughout scripture, God is saying:

If you will love me, I will love you.

I will extend my grace to any who shows me their Grace

Every place in scripture someone "found Grace" in God's eyes, it was because they had "GRACE" in their eye for God.

God can create millions of "worlds/Angels/people", but the one thing he can't create/program into these "worlds/Angels/People" is "LOVE",

To create a heaven where only love existed, the Free will choice had to be placed before the "World/Angels/Men", those who chose to love will be selected to enter heaven, those who don't, won't,

God's love (grace) is offer to all, but love isn't complete until it is "exchanged" between the two.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
What amazes me is that the answer is right in front of "everyone", but they can't "SEE IT".

What's really amazing is that folks like you can read a truthful, well constructed, direct response like the one Russell gave above and STILL in good conscience make the baseless charge that Calvinists make God responsible for sin.