God so loved...

[Tom Butler]

Not at all. Why would God need to "give them up" if they cannot believe? This implies an act of judgment for their rebellion, but it also implies God could influence them to believe.

The harshest judgment that God in this life can impose on a sinner is to leave them alone.

This is circular. Yes, God can only see those who believe, but this does not mean the others could not believe. Their fates were not fixed, they had choice.

I'm really having difficulty with this. Let's see: Are you saying that God can see those who believe, but not see those who don't believe--until they believe? Are you really saying that those whom God foresees as not believing can fool God by changing their minds and believing. I'm sure that I'm misunderstanding here, so I'll rely on you to set me straight. If I'm reading you right, this is very close to Open Theism, and I really don't think you hold that view. Except for the Calvinism issue, I've found much to agree with you about.

This is one of those questions no one seems able to answer, but it does not support your doctrine, because it would show election to be conditioned upon where a person lives, or what time they lived, or what people they were.

I mean, if an ancient civilization that lived in the Americas never heard the gospel, a person would have to ask why God chose not to elect any of these people? It would appear that God was partial. This is not unconditional.

Why does God elect millions in western countries, but very small numbers in the Middle East or Asia in proportion to the population? Does God prefer Europeans and Americans over Saudi's or Chinese?

I'll be the first to admit that I wish I knew the mind of God better. Why has he given some the gospel and not others? Isn't it ironic that the gospel was birthed in the Middle East? And yet, he told us to take the gospel everywhere.

 

[Winman]

The harshest judgment that God in this life can impose on a sinner is to leave them alone.

I agree, and in Romans 1 that is what God says he is doing to people who know of him and have no excuse and yet reject him. But this also implies that God could influence them to believe.

I'm really having difficulty with this. Let's see: Are you saying that God can see those who believe, but not see those who don't believe--until they believe? Are you really saying that those whom God foresees as not believing can fool God by changing their minds and believing. I'm sure that I'm misunderstanding here, so I'll rely on you to set me straight. If I'm reading you right, this is very close to Open Theism, and I really don't think you hold that view. Except for the Calvinism issue, I've found much to agree with you about.

Boy, you guys love to slur folks every chance you get don't you? I am simply saying that God can see who will believe and who will not believe, but what he sees does not determine who will believe or not. Any person can believe, but God will only see what they actually do.

The reason this is difficult for you is that you have been taught that election precedes faith. In your view, God elects a person before the foundation of the world, and then imposes faith upon that person whom he elected.

In the non-Cal view, faith precedes election. God in his foreknowledge sees ahead in time who will believe and elects those persons. The faith did not actually occur before election, but God's foreknowledge of this faith did.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

All Calvinists that I have seen deny that election can be based on God's foreknowledge of those who will believe, but they have no reason to do so. Election is absolutely according to foreknowledge, if not faith, then what is this thing God knows before it happens?

I'll be the first to admit that I wish I knew the mind of God better. Why has he given some the gospel and not others? Isn't it ironic that the gospel was birthed in the Middle East? And yet,

he told us to take the gospel everywhere.

People have been asking this question forever, and no one has given an adequate answer. There are some things that are not revealed to us in scripture. One can only assume that perhaps we are not allowed to know this information.

 

[psalms109:31]

Go out and tell

Ezekiel 3
18 When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 “Again, when a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sin. The righteous things that person did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous person not to sin and they do not sin, they will surely live because they took warning, and you will have saved yourself.”
James 5:
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

James 3:1
Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

2 Corinthians 5:
a. 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[ Or Christ, that person is a new creation.] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering
] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

 

[Tom Butler]

IBoy, you guys love to slur folks every chance you get don't you? I am simply saying that God can see who will believe and who will not believe, but what he sees does not determine who will believe or not. Any person can believe, but God will only see what they actually do.

The reason this is difficult for you is that you have been taught that election precedes faith. In your view, God elects a person before the foundation of the world, and then imposes faith upon that person whom he elected.

In the non-Cal view, faith precedes election. God in his foreknowledge sees ahead in time who will believe and elects those persons. The faith did not actually occur before election, but God's foreknowledge of this faith did.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

All Calvinists that I have seen deny that election can be based on God's foreknowledge of those who will believe, but they have no reason to do so. Election is absolutely according to foreknowledge, if not faith, then what is this thing God knows before it happens?

I did not intend to slur you, and if you think I did, then I apologize. I did state that what you posted seemed awfully close to Open Theism, and surely I must misunderstand because I don't believe that is your view. I also asked you to correct me if I had mis-stated your view.

We have different definitions of foreknowledge, have stated and debated them before, and rehashing it won't change anybody's mind. I understand your view, you understand mine

That's not what got my attention. What got it is the first paragraph above.

Of course God can see who will believe and who will not. We'll disagree on the basis for that foreknowledge, but I'm still confused. Sorry to be so dense.

Are you saying that even though God foresees faith (or lack of it) what he sees could change?

Or are you saying that even though God foresees faith (or lack of it) a man still has the capability of changing, but won't?

How'm I doing?

 

[Winman]

I did not intend to slur you, and if you think I did, then I apologize. I did state that what you posted seemed awfully close to Open Theism, and surely I must misunderstand because I don't believe that is your view. I also asked you to correct me if I had mis-stated your view.

From what I've read, Open Theists deny God can see the future. I disagee with this, I believe Gods knows all things that will ever happen, and knows all possibilities as well.

We have different definitions of foreknowledge, have stated and debated them before, and rehashing it won't change anybody's mind. I understand your view, you understand mine

No, I don't understand your view. To me, your view is unscriptural.

That's not what got my attention. What got it is the first paragraph above.

Of course God can see who will believe and who will not. We'll disagree on the basis for that foreknowledge, but I'm still confused. Sorry to be so dense.

Are you saying that even though God foresees faith (or lack of it) what he sees could change?

Or are you saying that even though God foresees faith (or lack of it) a man still has the capability of changing, but won't?

How'm I doing?

I am saying that God knows the end from the beginning. Before the foundation of the world he already knew who would believe and who would not. But he does not force or impose faith on anyone, every man makes his own free choice.

There is more, but most folks would not understand.