God: Temporal? Atemporal? Supratemporal??

[skypair]

I've been reading John M. Frame's (Calvinist, BTW) book responding to the issue of "Open Theism." His 9th chapter tackles the philosophical and theological issue of God's existence in time or timeless (unchanging) or outside of time.

My thinking is that God can be more than one of those things, right? Where is God the Father? In the 3rd heaven -- no one has ever seen Him. He is "above" time able to see all time at once.

So where do we get the idea that God is temporal? Because of the Son, right? The Son is who the earth was created for. God in the Son is the One who deals with temporal matters, no? He was the "Angel of God" in the OT interjecting Himself into the human experience. It was He that walked with Adam in the Garden. It is Christ's Spirit that mediates with us daily and only knows of the future what the Bible offers to even us (John 1:50-51 was merely Jesus reference to "Jacob's ladder.")

So what is "changeless" and "omnipresent" about God? His Holy Spirit! His "wisdom!" It is seen in everything everywhere!! The gospel of God's Spirit is communicated by all of nature. His specific gospel was communicated to Adam in Gen 3:15 as the ultimate victory of the "seed of the woman" over "seed of the serpent" -- the OT "gospel of the kingdom." The specific gospel of the NT is the "gospel of Christ," the "Lamb of God."

So basically Calvinists and open theists are rejecting each others' opinions based upon faulty paradigms of what aspect of God is spoken of in diversely descriptive -- even seemingly contradictory -- texts!

skypair

 

[skypair]

I'm sorry...

I guess my "spaghetti" isn't cooked enough 'cause none of it seems to be "sticking to the wall," eh?

OK, doesn't this help answer the question "What does God know and when does He know it?" The whole "open theist" - "simple foreknowledge" - "middle-knowledge" - "Augustinian-Calvinist" debate on divine foreknowledge?

What if God, the Planner, is a 'Calvinist' God (knowing everything :laugh but Christ, the Creator and Administrator of the 'program' has only "open theist" knowledge, for instance?

Are we even "on the boil yet?" :type:

skypair

 

[pinoybaptist]

skypair, brother, take a break. grab yourself a cup of coffee and some panini or drive up here to Buffalo and go to Niawanda Park one Sunday and just enjoy the breeze from the river.
Let me know when you're coming and maybe I'll meet you at the park and we can grab us something to eat besides Calvin sandwiches and Arminian cola. Maybe something tastier like, well, how about asiago bagels with ladles of butter on them downed with coffee mocha topped with twelve swirls of Reddi.
Who knows.
You and I might end up being friends actually here on earth.
:wavey:

 

[jdlongmire]

Hi, Skypair - Frame is a good one to read!

How can God be subject to his own Creation? Christ conquered the material effect of time, death.

Speaking of Molinism...I am still working through this article, but I think it is good stuff.

Blessings!

 

[skypair]

skypair, brother, take a break. grab yourself a cup of coffee and some panini or drive up here to Buffalo and go to Niawanda Park one Sunday and just enjoy the breeze from the river.
Let me know when you're coming and maybe I'll meet you at the park and we can grab us something to eat besides Calvin sandwiches and Arminian cola. Maybe something tastier like, well, how about asiago bagels with ladles of butter on them downed with coffee mocha topped with twelve swirls of Reddi.
Who knows.
You and I might end up being friends actually here on earth.
:wavey:

Ah! Sounds so inviting! Actually, we ARE coming up to your neck of the woods -- Newport, RI -- for family reunion next week. Coffee and panini sounds irresitible though.

Asiago bagels with ladles of butter? Are you trying to ruin my low choloresterol diet? Don't hink I don't detect your secret agenda, pinoy! :laugh:

skypair

 

[skypair]

Hi, Skypair - Frame is a good one to read!

How can God be subject to his own Creation? Christ conquered the material effect of time, death.

Speaking of Molinism...I am still working through this article, but I think it is good stuff.

Blessings!

it gets pretty involved, this issue of foreknowledge, doesn't it? And most will say that Molinism is closely allied with semi-Pelagianism.

I think we need to "dissect" foreknowledge and see how it works out for each Member of the trinity. Jesus clearly stated that it was not in His ability to know certain things -- the rapture date, for instance. Yet He said that God, the Father, does know when it will be. this leads one to believe that the Son has temporal foreknowledge but the Father has perfect, omniscient foreknowledge, no? I believe that if we believe in the trinity, we need to consider all its implications.

skypair

 

[jdlongmire]

it gets pretty involved, this issue of foreknowledge, doesn't it? And most will say that Molinism is closely allied with semi-Pelagianism.

I think we need to "dissect" foreknowledge and see how it works out for each Member of the trinity. Jesus clearly stated that it was not in His ability to know certain things -- the rapture date, for instance. Yet He said that God, the Father, does know when it will be. this leads one to believe that the Son has temporal foreknowledge but the Father has perfect, omniscient foreknowledge, no? I believe that if we believe in the trinity, we need to consider all its implications.

skypair

I think Jesus, in the self-limited, temporal, incarnated, pre-glorified state did not know - I believe he did/does pre and post incarnation. Just as I believe the Holy Spirit knows and will manifest once more with signs and wonders pre-Return. The Trinity in perfect knowledge and alignment.

 

[skypair]

I think Jesus, in the self-limited, temporal, incarnated, pre-glorified state did not know - I believe he did/does pre and post incarnation. Just as I believe the Holy Spirit knows and will manifest once more with signs and wonders pre-Return. The Trinity in perfect knowledge and alignment.

I'm considering a little bit different thought. See, if it is the Son that repented of creating the world, we would have one Person of the trinity who 1) learned things and 2) was changeable with mankind over time -- both of which we find in scripture.

Think about it. How do you explain these things appearing even pre-Christ? I believe that, rather than just pre-advent, perhaps the Son was self-limiting and temporal from "Alpha to Omega," from the time God began to create earth till the time it becomes His throne.

But then I have a compelling follow on idea that I've held for some time now -- that Father, Son, and Spirit will be One Person, not 3, in the New Earth/Kingdom of God as they once were before creation.

skypair

 

[Humblesmith]

I guess I think this issue is easier than it's made out to be.

If we all have no problem with God being everwhere at once (omnipresent, non-spacial), then why do we suddenly have a problem with Him being in all times at once (non-temporal)?

God is eternal and not bound by time. He can act in time, appear in time, but he is not bound by it. He made time, so he cannot be bound by it.

THere is no "more" of God in the front of a church than there is in the back, nor more of Him on a mountain than at the bottom of the ocean. Likewise, there is no "more" of God yesterday, today, or tomorrow. God is omni-temporal.

 

[skypair]

If we all have no problem with God being everwhere at once (omnipresent, non-spacial), then why do we suddenly have a problem with Him being in all times at once (non-temporal)?

Well, it's a question that open theists ask (per my OP).

Let me ask you since you seem interested in resolving the issue -- could Christ be temporal God and the Father be supratemporal or "omni-temporal" as you suggest? Would this not answer to Calvinists and open theists at the same time?

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

Well, it's a question that open theists ask (per my OP).

Let me ask you since you seem interested in resolving the issue -- could Christ be temporal God and the Father be supratemporal or "omni-temporal" as you suggest? Would this not answer to Calvinists and open theists at the same time?

skypair

SP...

you are using many words in the wrong way.

Also this makes two times you made statements in this thread alone that deny the Trinity.

 

[skypair]

you are using many words in the wrong way.

Spit it out -- what words?

Also this makes two times you made statements in this thread alone that deny the Trinity.

NOT! One God -- 3 Persons. That's what trinity means, in case you weren't up to speed on that.

Man, on the other hand, is a "triune" person -- 1 person, 3 natures (body, soul, spirit).

I'm thinking it is probably you who have misinterpretted most of what I have said, but I would hear you out. You have the floor. :type:

skypair

 

[jdlongmire]

I'm considering a little bit different thought. See, if it is the Son that repented of creating the world, we would have one Person of the trinity who 1) learned things and 2) was changeable with mankind over time -- both of which we find in scripture.

Only for a limited time and sense - during the incarnation. Don't confuse pre-incarnated and post-glorified Christ with the incarnation.

Think about it. How do you explain these things appearing even pre-Christ?

not sure to what you are referring...

I believe that, rather than just pre-advent, perhaps the Son was self-limiting and temporal from "Alpha to Omega," from the time God began to create earth till the time it becomes His throne.

Do you realize that Christ as the "eternal begotten" is a core orthodox belief and that what you stated is flirting with heresy?

But then I have a compelling follow on idea that I've held for some time now -- that Father, Son, and Spirit will be One Person, not 3, in the New Earth/Kingdom of God as they once were before creation.

Again - flirting with heresy - I'd be very careful where you are going with your thinking. There is not Biblical or traditional support for your position in orthodox Christianity.