GODS 10 COMMANDMENTS

Downsville:
The Bible teaches that the the Old Testament was for jews, not gentiles( Deut. 5:1-3). Therefore, as a gentile and one under the law of Christ ( I Cor. 9:21), I am not subject to the auspices of Moses.
Jesus said in Mat. 28:18-20, And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
The Old Law was a temporary covenant to bring men to Christ ( Gal. 3:24). When Christ died, he purchased the New Testament ( Hebrews 9:15-17). Therefore, since Jesus has ALL authority for command and practice, if one is to please him, he must submit to his will, not Moses ( John 1:14-17).
Why would I want to keep a system that is inferior and abolished by Christ? Why would I want to keep a system that only brings back a rememberance of sin ? ( Hebrews 10:1-4).

As for your comment about a lawyer, one need not be one to understand the grammatical construct of the passage in Hebrews. Simply put, the old covenant had already been abolished at the writing of the letter to the Hebrews. Perfect tense requires previous completion. My Eighth grade students have an excellent grasp of this basic concept of grammar.

 

I do not disagree with this in principle. We do obey out of love, yet obey we must. You would say that one who does not obey the commandments was not saved in the first place. I would say that that is true because he does not have the grace of perseverence and so, was given over to his sin. The result is of course the same. Damnation for those who do not obey the commandments. I of course would not say to one who has not become a Christian "obey the commandments and you'll be fine". I do not think that you would say to one who "thinks" he is saved to ignore them. Yet this is the impression I get from Protestantism. Do you believe in the "call to holiness".

1 Peter 1:15
but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;


Does sin become too causual.

Are the following not true in the NT...

Proverbs 2:1
My son, if you will receive my words
And treasure my commandments within you,


Proverbs 3:1
My son, do not forget my teaching,
But let your heart keep my commandments;


Proverbs 4:4
Then he taught me and said to me,
"Let your heart hold fast my words;
Keep my commandments and live;


Proverbs 7:1
My son, keep my words
And treasure my commandments within you.

Of which I can site many more? Are we no longer to meditate on his statutes. Is the beginning of wisdom, no longer fear of the Lord? I say not. I say the differenence in the New Covenant is that God leads us down the path of freedom from our sin, cleansing us of them as we repent from them unless we become willfully disobedient to them and to him. He doesn't just pile snow on dung but gives us the grace to overcome sin.

We are under grace and thus not under the law because grace removes the sin from our soul, not because the obedience to God is no longer required. It is God's love that allows this to happen in us. It is his grace that helps us move toward greater purity in our behavior. We cannot avoid sin on our own but we must strive for righteousness, by his grace. This is a truth that I find weakly portrayed in Protestantism.

Matthew 5:6
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.


Blessings

 

Yelsew said

Christians, Jews and Muslims all seem to "agree" on the days of the week. There are some good reasons why they all know which day is the first day and which is the 7th.

But lets take the Christian view.

God said in Exodus "Tomorrow is the Sabbath". And He continued to emphasize the very day via the falling of the manna.

He also told them "Remember the Sabbath day to keep IT holy - 6 days you shall labor .. but THE 7th day is the Sabbath.. for in Six days the Lord MADE... and Rested the 7th Day -- therefore the Lord BLESSED the 7th day and made it holy".

So this tells us two things --

#1. God did specify WHICH day was Sabbath.
#2. God did say that the 7th day of Creation week was an actual day and in Gen 2:3 He "made IT holy".

So "assuming you agree that God did not make a mistake in Exodus" about the day in Gen 2:3 -- we move on.

In the Gospels - Christ also keeps Sabbath and says that He is Lord of the Sabbath and that the Sabbath was "made for mankind".

Again - if we can assume that Christ IS God and that He did not make a mistake as to His Own Holy day -- then we can know today that the 7th day of our week correlates to the same 7th day used 2000 years ago under the Roman calendar - by the Jews in Palestine.

And that is how we know that this really "IS" the 7th day - the SAME day as Gen 2:3. It all depends on "God knowing" and "God caring" about Christ the Creator's own 7th day memorial of Creation - made a Holy day for mankind in Gen 2:3.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Downsville:
Judah and Israel ceased to be a nation during their captivities to Assyria and Babylon. This took place as a result of their rebellion against God ( II Kings 17:1-23, Jeremiah 24:1;25:1-13;29;1,2).
Your reference is not correct based on inspired biblical history.

 

The bible teaches that the Old Testament scripture was the Text for NT saint AND was used by the NT saints to establish their doctrine (2Tim 3:16) and to test the words of the NT Apostles "sola scriptura" Acts 17:11.

The Bible says in the Gospel of John that Christ commanded His followers saying "If you Love Me Keep My commandments" John 14:15 - pre-cross - spoken to Jewish believers in Christ (Messiah).

The Bible takes quotes out of the OT 10 Commandments and says in James 2 "So live and act as those who are to be Judged by the Law of Liberty".

The Bible says that we do not "Nullify the LAW of God by our faith. God forbid! We Establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31.

The Bible says that the first commandment in the unit of 10 commandments with a promise - is the 5th commandment and that these are binding on NT faith and practice (Eph 6:1-4).

The Bible says that the saints "Love God and keep His commandments" Rev 12.

The Bible says that it is not the "Hearers of the Law that are JUST before God but the Doers of the Law WILL be justified" Rom 2:13.

The Bible says repeatedly - that the OT text - IS scripture for the NT saint.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The following is a list of scriptures in the new testament concerning the law of God. The law of God was never meant as a means of righteousness, or salvation, but rather that it should point the sinner to both. The Lord Jesus Christ of course, being that which they point to for the salvation of the soul, and the fulfillment of righteousness within the believer. Christ did fulfill the law. Those therefore who believe in Him, and have accepted His presents in their hearts, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, also have the law fulfilled within them. This is not a means of righteousness or salvation, but rather as a result of being in Christ Jesus, in whom all things are made complete.

Rom 2:13-15 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Rom 3:31 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 7:14 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 8:3-4 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law is spiritual. Those who walk in the spirit, have the righteousness of the law fulfilled within them. This is not in order to be saved, but rather because they have already been saved by faith in Christ.

Rom 13:8 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Love is the fulfillment of the law. You cannot fulfill a law that no longer exists.

Rom 13:10 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 5:14-18 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Those who walk in the spirit, are not under the law. This is because, as has already been pointed out, the law is spiritual. Those who are walking in the spirit have the law fulfilled within them, instead of the works of the flesh, or carnal nature. If you are in Christ, by faith, then you have died with Him. If you have died with Him, then the penalty of the law is no longer over you, for the penalty is death, and you have already died in Christ. This having been accomplished by Christ's death on the cross, and your faith in that act, you now walk in newness of life. It is no longer you, but Christ that lives in you. This is the fulfillment of the law within the heart. Paul explains this very clearly in the next verses.

CHAPTER 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

PRAISE GOD! we have been freed from the penalty of sin, which is death, and given the power from God to live a life of righteousness, that is the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ.

James 1:25 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Matt 5:17-19 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Matt 22:37-40 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

John 14:15 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10-11 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

1 Cor 7:19 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

I Jn 2:3-4 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I Jn 3:22-24 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

I Jn 5:2-3 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God,keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

II Jn 1:5-6 5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Rev 12:17 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Great list Kam -

You may want to consider adding the sample quotes of the Law - from the Gospels, Romans and James 2.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob
The old law is not binding authority for men today ( Mat. 28:18-20). Jesus fulfiled ALL the things written of him in the old Law ( Luke 24:44). The old law has severed it's purpose which was to bring men to Christ ( Gal. 3:24). It was taken out of the way and abolished by the cross of Christ ( Eph. 2:15,Col. 3:16). Peace with God and salvation are the product of the redemptive work of Christ in the cross, not the law ( Col. 1:20). If the old law were still authority for practice and teaching, I would be going to Jerusalem three times a year, attending the feast of tabernacle, offering incense, making a sin offering, giving a tenth of ALL I possess. However, since the old law has been taken out of the way, I practice and teach by the authority of Christ in the new testament ( Mat. 28:18-20). I study the old testament for affirmation of hope which was promised to Abraham and may be realized through Christ ( Gal. 3:24-29).

Bob, I seriously doubt you keep ALL the old law as one who keeps it has been commanded ( Gal. 5:3,4). The position that the old law is still binding authority for men today is without foundation under the gospel dispensation.

 

Hmm lets see what Matt 28 "actually says".

Matt 28
19 "" Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.


Sorry Frank - nothing in Matt 28 about Christ telling his Jewish listeners "The scripture is now OLD don't listen to the Word of God in scripture any more".

What is fascinating is that Matthew HEARS this instruction and what does he publish about WHAT Christ taught?? You guessed it! The book of Matthew.

Also notice what John states as the "teaching of Jesus"

John 14
15 If you love Me, you will keep My commandments
..
30 ""I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;
31 but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here.


Here again - he simply records Christ's pre-cross message to His Jewish followers. And in that context it is "Keep My Commandments" - as they would know the commandments of God to be in the days of Christ.

But some have argued that the teaching of Jesus might have been opposed to the commandments of God- perhaps the two were not saying the same things. Certainly the Jewish audience knew the Word of God - but would then be tossing it out pre-Cross?

John 12:
47 ""If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 "" He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
49 "" For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
50 ""I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.''

Hmm here is the "report" that John gives decades afterward - about the "teaching of Christ". It appears to say that Christ is teaching nothing but what the Father has given.

So we should "expect" Christ to be "Affirming the Word of God" not "rejecting it" with His Jewish listeners in Matt 28 and John 14 etc.

But what about after the resurrection - surely there he began to deny the Word of God - the scriptures -- or did He ?? ....

Luke 24
25 [/b]And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?"
27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures. [/b]


Apparently He did not abandon the Word of God even AFTER the cross. Maybe He just said "ignore the Law of Moses" now - and forget what I said before the cross??

Luke 24
44 Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."
45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
46 and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
48 "You are witnesses of these things.
49 "And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you;


Notice never does He call it "the old law" or the "Abolished Law" or the "dead word" -- it is just scripture.

So when Paul says "ALL Scripture is given by inspiration from God AND is used for Doctrine"
He is also clear that scripture - is still scripture EVEN in the NT.

Frank said --

And He did so with calling it the "Old Law" and without abolishing scripture.

In fact - He could affirm post cross (as we see in MAtt 28) that the disciples were to teach post-cross NT saints exactly what HE taught them - and so they did - and we see they saying "what HE taught them" in Matt, Mark, Luke and John. The PRE-Cross statements of Christ.

But then - some have speculated that the "only thing" written in scripture was "predictions about the Messiah" - as does Frank here

Again. Just as Matt 28 said nothing about "the scripture being old or done away" so also Eph 2 and Col 3 say nothing about "The Word of God being abolished and done away". In fact - they don't even say that about the Law of God.

In Christ,

Bob

 

True. No "commandment" NT or OT is a Method of salvation. Christ alone justifies - and saves.

The Law of God was never given as a means of salvation - either the commands in the NT or the commands in the OT - none could "save".

You seek to attack the Word of God as given in scripture by using a principle that applies to commandments given in BOTH the NT and OT. That is not a compelling form of argument.

As it turns out - Christ the Creator is God. He is the "Same" in the OT and in the NT. His Word remains as written in both. Perhaps we can review that in more detail in the future.

Your argument above is in essence "you would not know that the sacrifices and annual feasts associated with them were ended at the cross IF you did not chuck the word of God out the window wholesale".

My argument is two-part.

#1. No command is given by Christ or the NT apostles to do such a thing.

#2. Heb 10:4-12 spells out clearly for us - the end of the sacrificial system WITHOUT asking us to dismiss the Word of God - Scripture.

This has been pointed out repeatedly in discussions with other board members who themselves have stated (like you)that they would not know about this Heb 10:4-12 instruction regarding sacrifices and the annual feasts associated with them - if they could not toss out the Law of God in bulk as a starting point.

But such an argument given to someone that actually read Heb 10:4-12 would never be "compelling".

The fact that there ARE predictions about the work of the Messiah in the OT - is not a basis for nullifying and abolishing the text that ALSO addresses many other subjects.

Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" is a fine example of an OT text that "can not" be "abolished" at the cross - YET it was fulfilled perfectly by Christ.

And though God tells us that He made the world in 6 days and rested the 7th in Gen 1-2:3 we are still not "told" to delete or abolish or ignore or refute or reject that teaching of God in the NT.

That view is flawed in several areas.

#1. As already noted - Heb 10:4-12 already spells out the purpose of specifc predictive laws regarding the ceremonial forms specific to sacrifices and offerings and how they terminate at the cross.

#2. Paul had Timothy circumcised in Acts 16 without condemning him to "the realm of the lost".

#3. The point made in Gal 5 had to do with "becoming a Jew" not simply "keeping one Commandment". In Eph 2 we see clearly that the term used for Jews as "the circumcision" it was a keyword that did NOT simply reference keeping ONE command. Paul in Gal 5 is arguing the SAME point we see in Acts 15 where those promoting circumcision among the gentiles are in fact insisting that Gentiles become Jews.

EVEN in the OT - this was not required of Gentile believers. And I think you are "hard pressed" to abolish the Law of Christ the Creator in the Old Testament even using the model you currently follow.

#4. Paul shows clearly that the UNIT of 10 continues authorotatively in the NT - in Eph 6:1-4 saying that the 5th commandment is the first one in that unit "With a promise" and IS still binding.

In Romans 7 Paul AGAIN quotes from the unit of 10 and shows that it continues to "define sin".

In James 2 - James AGAIN quotes from the unit of 10 and says that this will "judge" the saints of the NT. "SO LIVE and SO act as those who ARE to be judged by the Law of Liberty" - which is quoted directly from the OLD Testament unit of 10.

Anyway - I am sure you see where I am going with this. The Word of God "remains" both the NT and the OT Word of Christ the Creator - who "IS the SAME yesterday today and forever" Heb 13.

And "yes" we can read Heb 10:4-12 "EVEN" if we accept that fact. EVEN if we do not wholesale abolish the Word of Christ the Creator saying "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" (Which is itself a quote of the 3rd commandment).

In Christ,

Bob