GODS 10 COMMANDMENTS

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Frank:
Bob:

There are no examples of any Christians in the age of the new testament who kept the sabbath day or the ten commandments

#1. Christ quotes the 3rd commandment saying "If you Love Me Keep My commandments" in John 14:15 before the Cross. His followers "believed Him".

#2. Christ's followers "rested on the Sabbath According to THE Commandments"

#3. Christ said in Matt 5
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


#4 Christ said of the commandments --
Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

#5 John remains in perfect agreement with Christ's precross John 14:15 statement regarding the Commandments of God - even in Revelation

Rev 12:17 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

#5 Christ said His Word - His command and God's commands are the same --
John 14:15 (quoting from the 10 commandments) “IF you love Me Keep My commandments”

Christ quotes from the 3rd commandment for the statement above.

Christ said that HIS commandment and the Father’s Commandment are one and the same
John 12:50
"I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."


All Christian Scholars agree - nothing was nailed to the cross BEFORE Christ died on the Cross and all agree that John 14 is "before Christ died on the cross".

Frank said --
Mark is not of the church age. His writings consist of the life of Christ

Are you asking for permision to snip it out of your Bible?

Do you think that it does not qualify as "Scripture"?

Do you think it is exempt from "ALL scripture is given by inspiriation from God AND is useful for doctrine" 2Tim 3:16

Mark is doing as Christ commanded Him after the resurrection Christ told Mark

Matt 28:
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Frank said

Jesus kept the sabbath as one who kept the law (Mat. 5:17,18, Luke 24:44-46 ). In Mark, he provides the correct application for the Jews. The seventh day was for the good of the whole man, both body and soul.

In deed for He says "The Sabbath was Made for MAnkind" Mark 2:27 when it was MADE in Gen 2:3 it was made "for Mankind".

No escaping it.

And as you correctly point out- Christ's message and model in the Gospels is "obedience" not "rebellion" and as you point out - obedience was to the Word, the Scriptures, the Law of God, the Will and Word of God.

All His words found in the Gospels His commands and Words must be understood in that pre-cross "Context".

Frank said --

The context indicates Jews under the old law are in view here.

I like it when we agree as in this part of your post.

Frank said --

Gentiles were not allowed into the temple, tabernacles to eat, touch, or to offer any thing holy to God. As one who wants to keep the law, I thought you would know this. I agree with the affrimation of Mark. The sabbath was made for man.

Hmm.

In Isaiah 58 it is Gentiles that are being blessed for keeping the Sabbath.

In Isaiah 66 it is "ALL mankind" that is coming before God "From Sabbath to Sabbath to Worship".

In Acts 13 it is "gentiles" that are in the synagogue on Sabbath worshipping with Jews.

And in this case it is "Sabbath after Sabbath"

In Acts 17 it is "gentiles" that are in the synagogue on Sabbath worshipping with Jews.

Frank said
The law consisted of the commandments, statutes, judgements, feast days etc. ( Neah. 8: 9,13,14; 9:13-15,29). Paul, by inspiration, says these were nailed to the cross ( Col. 3:16, Eph. 2:15). [/qb]

Wrong. Paul said that "our certificate of Debt was nailed to the Cross" Col 2:16 - never did He say "the Commandments of God were nailed to the Cross" or the "Law of God was nailed to the cross".

In fact Paul says "Do we then make VOID the LAw of God through our faith? God Forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God!" Rom 3:31.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Eric said

Paul doesn't say "we [Israelites] served things which were not god" here (which you kept accusing me of saying), because they followed the true God, where the pagans followed things that were not god. "lost" and "serving what is not god" are not exactly the same thing, so you can't interchange them between v.3, 8 & 9 like you keep doing, because though all who serve what is not god are lost, it is possible to go as far as to "worship" the true God and still be lost (Mark 7:7; and it's usually you sabbathkeepers who always quote this verse; Matt.7:21,22) Both were in the same spiritual state of condemnation, and even for the gentiles to switch pagan gods for the Law, would do no good, as both were in the same state, as you even point out:

You are simply swapping out your own argument where "you said" that "What was APPROVED in the OT" is now condemned.

here is your quote "again"

Eric said
And you keep ignoring my explanation of why lawkeeping was approved in the OT (and Rom.14), but not in the NT (unless it was personal devotion.)

here is my response to your statement - "remember"

Bob said --
Please hang on to that point. It exposes the weakness in your position. Your argument is that that which IS faithful obedient submission in the OT - now gets you to hell.

You have just defined it above as "approved" by God in the OT and then in the NT you assign that which you admit to be approved in the Word of God - Approved in the Law of God as "the weak and beggerly things - pertaining to that which is not god at all".

But instead of that approach Paul says "DO we then abolish the Law of God with our NT faith? God Forbid! In Fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31.

#1. Obviously the Mark 7 case of violating the commandments of God (as Christ said in Mark 7) was not a case of "keeping the commandments" and is not an example of something "approved" in the OT that would be later condemned in the NT.

#2. "Obviously" your position of taking the GOOD practices of "what was approved" in the OT and showing that it was sin to "observe them" in the NT "as if " God was commanding His Word should be obeyed - is sin in the NT - is unsupportable.

Galatians 4
1 Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything,
2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father.
3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world.

It seems “obvious” that Paul would not class the faithful obedience of OT saints (as we see in Heb 11) in the same category as godless paganism ( yet many Christians today still “hope” to find such atrocity in this text). Suppose for a moment that Paul is intending to lump “what was approved of in the saints of the OT along with outright paganism of the gentiles in Galatia before their conversion. What are the options then?

#1. If this is a condemnation of the entire OT period and the NT period after the cross – lumping them all in with pagans and saying of ALL of them “we were under bondage to the elemental things of this world” – then the Approval we see in Heb 11 of those OT saints refutes all such speculative “grouping” with paganism and Paul is made to contradict himself. For paganism is “not pleasing to God” but in Heb 11 we find that the OT saints were “pleasing to God” and gained approval by faith – continuing as examples of faith EVEN to the NT saints. The other problem this poses is that instead of the Law being “spiritual” as Paul said in Romans 7 and instead of it being “holy just and good” it is really just ” the elemental things of this world”

#2. If we ignore the entire OT period and pretend that this “while we were children” statement of Paul “really” only covers a few decades after the cross – then Paul is only lumping post-cross obedience to the Scriptures – the Law of God as given in the OT – along with paganism classing them both as ‘bondage under the weak and elemental things of the World”. But that means that the Acts 21 example of taking a Hebrew “vow” to prove support and endorsement of the OT code was “Paul sinning and in bondage to the elemental things of this world”. It means that the “observing the day” subject of Romans 14 is really all about “paganism” if they are really observing the same OT days in the NT as in the OT. It means Paul was wrong to claim that they were “observing it to the Lord” for in fact they were “observing the elemental things of the World”. Obviously this option is also “refuted”.

Vs 4 “But when the fullness of time came God sent His Son” makes the “time centered options” #1 and #2 bound to just “pre cross” time.

So what is the meaning?
“WE” while “we” were children we were held in bondage (slavery) to the “elemental things of The World” not (of God). This is both Paul and the Gentiles – (Paul as Saul – the lost). The “things of the World” are NOT the “Law that is Spiritual” Romans 7:14. Paul is grouping lost Jews and lost gentiles both under the condemnation of the law of God – both outside the family of God and “needing to be adopted” and both needing a savior “until faith comes” as we see in Gal3 and each then become members of the faithful line of Abraham (as chapter 3 points out).. He is saying “nothing” about the “Spiritual, holy just and true Law of God” being “the elemental things of this world” as may today hope.

4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Clearly “in the fullness of time” points to the fact of Daniel 9 and Mark 1:15 showing the time of the Messiah’s ministry “The time is fulfilled” Mark 1:15.

Paul makes the argument that instead of Christ coming and “dumping God’s Law so that people would follow a different law” – Christ comes “under the LAW” of God and perfectly complies with it. In fact in Matt 5 Christ condemns anyone who “teaches others” to ignore the Law of God. Certainly something we might expect God to be saying in Gospel as Christ perfectly serving “under the Law” to redeem those who are under the condemnation of the Law discussed in chapter 3.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
#4 Christ said of the commandments --
Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Bob,

The Lord is saying that in order to receive eternal life one must keep the commandments.You are quoting this view to back up your claim that we must keep the commandments,which are a part of "the law".

However,this quote is from "Questions on Doctrine":

"According to Seventh-day Adventist belief,there is,and can be,no salvation through the law,or by human works of the law,but only through the saving race of God"("Questions on Doctrine",p.135).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Eric B]

You are simply swapping out your own argument where "you said" that "What was APPROVED in the OT" is now condemned.

here is your quote "again"


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric said
And you keep ignoring my explanation of why lawkeeping was approved in the OT (and Rom.14), but not in the NT (unless it was personal devotion.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...something "approved" in the OT that would be later condemned in the NT.

...taking the GOOD practices of "what was approved" in the OT and showing that it was sin to "observe them" in the NT "as if " God was commanding His Word should be obeyed - is sin in the NT -

It means Paul was wrong to claim that they were “observing it to the Lord” for in fact they were “observing the elemental things of the World”. Obviously this option is also “refuted”.

Look at what you are doing! You even quote my words, then still proceed to substitute your own words, and then spend a whole post answering your own straw man. I never said keeping the law was "condenmed". Look again at the past part: unless it was personal devotion. that is not a universal condemnation of the practice. It is talking about motivation. If you keep it unto the Lord as personal devotion, fine. If you keep it thinking you are gaining some merit, or that it is still mandatory, as if Christ had never come, THEN it is "condemned". If a brother legitimately "weak" and offended by people doing or not doing something, then those people should have the attitude of care towards their brother that they would conform for him. If it is some apostate trying to lead you back under bondage, and you follow them, you are returning to "weak and beggarly elements" and not pleasing Christ. It is all so simple, but you keep mixing all of this up to cloud thie whole issue. But it is vital for you to recast my words because it destroys your whole argument. It's nothing but a pure defense method.

Wrong. Paul said that "our certificate of Debt was nailed to the Cross" Col 2:16 - never did He say "the Commandments of God were nailed to the Cross" or the "Law of God was nailed to the cross".

No, it says "handwriting of ordinances", which means exactly what it looks like. "chirograph" (legal document) of "dogma" ("law", "decree"). I don't know which translation you are using, or if you did that yourself. In the Context of Col.2:16, what we see once again is sabbath, and also dietary laws, and "the rudiments of the world". Once again, it is not the Law in itself that is the "elements", but the REASON they were doing it: they acted as if they were not "dead with Christ"; as if He had never come, and they were still "under the Law" (whatever you take that to men). Before you even start, "after the doctrines and commandments of men" is not referring to the Law either, but rather the doctrine that all those ordinances were still in effect despite Christ's work (plus whatever else they added to them).

Also, from before, I forgot to add:

"keeping Seasons" (something never commanded in the OT)

You forgot Carson's list:
1 Chronicles 23:31 - fixed festivals, new moons, Sabbaths

2 Chronicles 2:4 - appointed feasts, new moons, Sabbaths

2 Chronicles 8:13 - annual feasts, new moons, Sabbaths

2 Chronicles 31:3 - fixed festivals, new moons, Sabbaths

Nehemiah 10:33 - appointed times, new moon, Sabbaths

Ezekiel 45:17 - appointed feasts, new moons, Sabbaths

Ezek 46:1-11 - appointed feasts, new moons, Sabbath

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul said that "our certificate of Debt was nailed to the Cross" Col 2:16 - never did He say "the Commandments of God were nailed to the Cross" or the "Law of God was nailed to the cross".

At Col.2:16 it is clear that that which was nailed to the Cross reprsents a shadow of things to come":

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross...Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:Which are a shadow of things to come"(Col.2:14-17).

And the following verse demonstrates that the "shadow" of things to come refers to "the law":

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come..."(Heb.10:1).

So it was "the law",which includes the Sabbath commandment,was nailed to the Cross.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Frank]

Bob:
I rightly divide the word of truth ( II Tim. 2:15). You are the snip and paste person. Your post does not provide the evidence for Christians keeping the sabbath, not one reference. Instead, you avoid the question by using scriptures applicable to the Jews under the Mosaical dispensation.

Paul said the law was abolished taken out of the way. The bible says in Col. 2:14,  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
The Bible says in Eph. 2:15, Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Jesus blotted out the handwriting of ordinances which were against us. He abolished the law of commandments. There is not one word in these passages about, as you say, " certificate of death" that is your insertion into the word of God. If a law is in force, the consequences of it are , too. Your insertion is irreconcilable with the bible.

Furthermore,the law of the Lord, and the law are the same thing ( Luke 2:24, Neah. 8:5,7,9,13,18, Romans 7:4-7).

Acts 13 is a reference to Paul teaching in the synagogue on the sabbath. This was a custom of his for the purpose of preaching the gospel of Christ to the lost ( Acts 18:1-4, Acts 13:22-52).
The Gentiles present were prosyletes to the Jewish religion ( Acts 13:43). Again, there is no worship as prescribed by the new testament which consists of singing, giving, Lord's supper, preaching ( Acts 20:7, I Cor. 11:24-29, I Cor. 16:1,2, Eph. 5:19, Hebrews 2;12). The practice of the apostles to meet on the first day for the divine pupose of worship was adhered to faithfully by those of the church ( Acts 2:42). Acts 13 is silent concerning acceptable worship. You appeal to silence in this argument ( Hebs. 7:14, Hebs 8:4). God does not authorize by silence (cf. Lev. 10:1; Dt. 17:3; Jer. 7:31,1 Cor. 4:6; 2 Jn. 9).
Again, in Acts 17 Paul is teaching in the synagoue of the sabbath. There is no worship as per the authority of Christ in the new testament. Teaching the lost may be done at any time or day of the week ( Mark 16:15, Mat. 28:18-20). Your references appeal to silence and violate the expressed will of God ( Acts 20:7;2:42,I Cor. 16:1,2, Hebrews 2;12, Eph. 5;19, I Cor. 11: 24-29).
In Isaiah 58, the writer is referring to his Jewish contemporaries, not the exiles.
In Isaiah 66, the prophet uses the sabbath to sabbath phrase to describe continual unbroken worship in heaven. The context is referring to the " new heaven and new earth" a prophetic utterance about heaven ( II Pet. 3;9-13).

Bob, all I want is a book, chapter and verse, that authorizes new testament Christians to keep the old testament with it's commandments, statutes, oridnances etc.

 

[BobRyan]

Frank said --
Bob, all I want is a book, chapter and verse, that authorizes new testament Christians to keep the old testament with it's commandments

Thank you for asking.


The following is a list of scriptures in the NT upholding the law of God – specifically His Commandments (as Paul points out in Romans 7)

The law of God was never meant as a means of righteousness, or salvation, but rather that it should point the sinner to both. The Lord Jesus Christ of course, being that which they point to for the salvation of the soul, and the fulfillment of righteousness within the believer. Christ did fulfill the law. Those therefore who believe in Him, and have accepted His presents in their hearts, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, also have the law fulfilled within them written on the “Tablets of the human heart” 2Cor 3 – for the New Covenant promises the Law of God “written on the heart” Heb 8.

This New Covenant promise that b]“establishes the Law of God”[/b] Rom 3:31 is not a means of righteousness or salvation, but rather as a result of being in Christ Jesus, in whom all things are made complete.

Rom 2:13-15
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Rom 3:31 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 7:14 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 8:3-4 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law is spiritual. Those who walk in the spirit, have the righteousness of the law fulfilled within them. This is not in order to be saved, but rather because they have already been saved by faith in Christ.

Rom 13:8 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Love is the fulfillment of the law. You cannot fulfill a law that no longer exists.

Rom 13:10 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 5:14-18
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Those who walk in the spirit, are not under the law. This is because, as has already been pointed out, the law is spiritual. Those who are walking in the spirit have the law fulfilled within them, instead of the works of the flesh, or carnal nature. If you are in Christ, by faith, then you have died with Him. If you have died with Him, then the penalty of the law is no longer over you, for the penalty is death, and you have already died in Christ. This having been accomplished by Christ's death on the cross, and your faith in that act, you now walk in newness of life. It is no longer you, but Christ that lives in you. This is the fulfillment of the law within the heart. Paul explains this very clearly in the next verses.

Romans CHAPTER 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

PRAISE GOD! we have been freed from the penalty of sin, which is death, and given the power from God to live a life of righteousness, that is the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ.

James 1:25 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Matt 5:17-19 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Matt 22:37-40 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

John 14:15 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10-11 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

1 Cor 7:19 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

I Jn 2:3-4 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I Jn 3:22-24 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

I Jn 5:2-3 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God,keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

II Jn 1:5-6 5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Rev 12:17 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Of course - when it comes to the Words of Christ Himself in the NT - some respond by saying "Yes but that is only the Words of Christ".

I take a "different" approach - I say "Yes and AMEN! the Words of Christ!".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Frank said --
You are the snip and paste person. Your post does not provide the evidence for Christians keeping the sabbath, not one reference

Sadly for your view - you are wrong.

In Isaiah 66 every saint that has ever lived is shown to "be keeping the Sabbath FROM Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" in the New Earth..

Even "you" will have a hard time claiming that Christians are not a member of "mankind".

IN Heb 4 "There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath Rest for the People of God"

And of course your text "There DOES NOT REMAIN therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

And your text in John 14 "If you Love Me Keep all My commandments EXCEPT the Holy Day of Christ the Creator MADE for Mankind".

Your texts - simply don't "exist".

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[tamborine lady]

Here are Jesus and Paul in the temple on the sabbath day.

Do with it what you will:

The following scriptures show that CHRISTIANS were going to church in the synagogue !!

Acts 22-17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;

then verse 19 says: And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:----------them that believe on thee! He found the Christians in the synagogue!! He knew they would be there, so thats where he went to find them!!

Acts 17-2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 18-4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.------ Notice he said Jews AND Greeks, not just Jews!

Luke 4-16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.----- This was Jesus .


Mark 5-2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue:---

Luke 6-6 And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught:-------etc

Frank said he wanted to know where it was, well there it is.

Tam,

Working for Him

 

[tamborine lady]

I can't understand it! I post some scriptures that show some cold hard facts, and everybody scatters like a bunch of scared rabbits!

What gives?

Tam,

 

[Eric B]

I guess because it doesn't prove that Christians are bound by the Law. Christianity started out as a Jewish sect, and there were Gentile proselytes in the synagogue, as well as new converts coming to hear the apostles preach there on the day of their services. But this says nothing about everybody "KEEPing" the sabbath, let alone being required to. Plus with the rift that occured, the church was eventuallty out of the synagogue (Matt.16:2), and the temple destoyed, so the Church gained its own identity, and OT days were made optional as one's one personal devotion to the Lord.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
[QB]Kelly,
I did not repeat what you said later in your post.

Oh, but you are. You are asserting that you live by faith, in the Grace of God, which is EXACTLY what the last part of my post is speaking of. But anyway.

Are you not aware that the Ten Commandments are are part of the law?

The Ten Commandments are part of the Law of God, yes, but they are not the 'Law' that is being spoken of in Galatians. Did you read the whole thing, and see what the theme is?

The Ten Commandents were written in the "book of the law",and that is what the verse I quoted is speaking of:

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith"(Gal.3:10,11).

Those who are of 'the works' of the law are not under grace, they are saved by their WORKS. He is talking about something here. This isn't talking about born again believers.

We are under grace, but that does not give us the liberty to sin wilfully! Living by faith in the Son of God involves a commitment to keeping the Commandments of God! Faith has substance!

Can you not see that when Paul speaks of "the law" that the Ten Commandments are included?

Not in Galatians!

Are you getting that? It's Galatians, not the whole of the NT, or even just all of Pauls writings I was talking about. Just Galatians.

Galatians is speaking about one law in particular, one that the Jews were having a hard time letting go of.

Let me know when you figure out what it is.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[3AngelsMom]

I don't remember who said it, and I don't have the time right now to read this whole thread to find out, but I remember someone saying....

"Jesus is my Sabbath"


Who said that?

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[Frank]

Bob:
Again, you seem to insert meanings of texts that are not present in the original text ( i.e. Col. 2:14), or ignore context and audience. Jesus said what thou doest doest quickly ( John 13:27). Judas went out and hanged himself ( Mat. 27:5). Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Jesus said in Luke 10:37 go and do thou likewise. According to your hermaneutic, Jesus is telling us to hang ourselves. This is exactly what one may conclude when he ignores audience and context.
It is clear that Isaiah's reference is to complete worship eternally in heaven. The phrase new heaven and new earth refer to such (II Pet. 3:10-13).

Furthermore, The authority of Christ and his word is without question. However, Jesus did not authorize men to keep the old law after his death. You ignore the blood probated will of Christ ( Hebrews 9:15-17). In Hebrews 10:9, the Bible says,  Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10  By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

You reject the probated blood bought will of Christ. The Bible clearly states the first was " taken away" to establish the second. This is harmonious with Col.2:14 which says, Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Gal. 3:24;2:11; 5:1-6).

The context of both passages is the realtionship of the death of Christ to the old law. They were taken out of the way to establish the new testament ( Mat. 26:28). I believe the words of Christ, Paul and the inspired writer of Hebrews, your unfounded assertions not withstanding.

Furthermore, Christians worshipped and met on the first day of the week ( Acts 20:7, 2:42, I Cor,. 16:1,2). Christianity began on the first day of the week ( Acts 2:1-47) The day of Pentecost was always on the first day of the week ( Le. 23:15,16). It is the Lord's day ( Rev. 1:10).
The name Christian is EXCLUSIVE TO THE GOSPEL AGE. It does not include anyone under the law of Moses, the old law. ( Isaiah 55:5;62:1,2, Acts 11:26). The Bible says when one becomes a Christian the old is out and the new is in ( II Cor. 5:17).The inspired text says ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW. The everlasting Kingdom is Christ's and his authoritative will is the new testament. One that is to be taught, practiced and obeyed unitl the end of time ( Mat. 28:18-20).
Have a good one.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Frank,

Revelation 1:10 never states that 'The Lord's Day' was the first day of the week.

-Kelly

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Galatians is speaking about one law in particular, one that the Jews were having a hard time letting go of.

Kelly,

I have already provided a verse from Galatians that proves that when Paul is speaking about "the law" he is including the Ten Commandments.Here is what I said:

The Ten Commandents were written in the "book of the law",and that is what the verse I quoted is speaking of:

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith"(Gal.3:10,11).

But you say:

The Ten Commandments are part of the Law of God, yes, but they are not the 'Law' that is being spoken of in Galatians.

Even though I have provided a verse that demonstrates that one verse where Paul uses the term "the law" that he is including the Ten Commandments.But you say that the Ten Commandments are "not the 'Law' that is being spoken of in Galatians.

Well,it clearly is at Galatians 3:10,11.

And what Paul says in those verses could not be any plainer:

No man is justified by the law in the sight of God !

We are under grace, but that does not give us the liberty to sin wilfully!

I never said that we have the liberty to sin wilfully.However,Paul says that "all things are lawful unto me".He also spoke of being "free" and at "liberty" of the law,but that is not a license to sin:

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another"(Gal.5:13).

Living by faith in the Son of God involves a commitment to keeping the Commandments of God! Faith has substance!

Yes,but we must use our "reason" in determining which commandments of his we are to follow.For example,here is one of His commandments:

"Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do"(Mt.23:1-3).

Are we supposed to observe what the leaders of the Jewish nation say to do?

Of course not!

And the same applies to "the law" which includes the Ten Commandments.When some attempted to place the Gentile believers under "the law",the Apostles decided that they were not to observe "the law".And there is no Scripture that indicates that that decision was ever changed.

So as Christians we are not to observe "the law".Paul says,"Ye are not under the law but under grace"(Ro.6:14).

Galatians is speaking about one law in particular, one that the Jews were having a hard time letting go of.

Let me know when you figure out what it is.

You are probably referring to "circumcision".But as I have already demonstrated,Paul was speaking about more than just "one law" in Galatians.Instead,he is speaking about "all things written in the book of the law".

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
[QB] The Ten Commandents were written in the "book of the law",and that is what the verse I quoted is speaking of:

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith"(Gal.3:10,11).

You are taking the bull by the tail here instead of the horns!

Those who are under GRACE, are not under the CURSE of the Law i.e. the PENALTY. We are still admonished, quite frequently through the NT to continue in the Commandments of God, and that His Law is HOLY.

You are attempting to say that because we are under Grace we are no longer required to OBEY.

That is NOT the case, as you clearly state in your final comment. Which creates quite an apparent contradiction.

Even though I have provided a verse that demonstrates that one verse where Paul uses the term "the law" that he is including the Ten Commandments. But you say that the Ten Commandments are "not the 'Law' that is being spoken of in Galatians.

Do you see a verse in Galatians that clearly points to the Ten Commandments of God? Let me know.

Well,it clearly is at Galatians 3:10,11.

Those verses do not pertain to the Ten Commandments of God, but speak of the 'Law' that is the theme of Galatians. He was not speaking to the Galatians about Sabbath keeping or murder, but about one specific thing in the 'book of the Law'.

And what Paul says in those verses could not be any plainer:

No man is justified by the law in the sight of God !

There is no argument there. This isn't about justification. We are justified by Grace, through Faith in Jesus Christ. Our works are an afterthought. Whether we keep the Commandments of God or not, is evident of the Grace and Faith that we live in through the Power of the Spirit of God. Faith produces fruit!

I never said that we have the liberty to sin wilfully.However,Paul says that "all things are lawful unto me". He also spoke of being "free" and at "liberty" of the law,but that is not a license to sin:

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another"(Gal.5:13).

Ok, now you are trying to have your cake, and eat it too, are we free and all things are lawful to us (including murder? adultery?) or are we not to abuse this GRACE as an occasion to sin?

Yes,but we must use our "reason" in determining which commandments of his we are to follow.

And which verse tells us that? Where does it say that we are to reason among ourselves as to which things we should still obey?

For example,here is one of His commandments:

"Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, 'The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do'"(Mt.23:1-3).

Are we supposed to observe what the leaders of the Jewish nation say to do?

Of course not!

Well, I think if I read just that portion of that passage I would agree, but you left out a whole lot, now didn't you?

Shall we?

Matthew 23

1. Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2. Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3. All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6. And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7. And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

I'm going to have to say that the LAST thing Jesus was doing was commanding us to obey the leaders of the Jewish nation!!!

And the same applies to "the law" which includes the Ten Commandments. When some attempted to place the Gentile believers under "the law", the Apostles decided that they were not to observe "the law". And there is no Scripture that indicates that that decision was ever changed.

Well since your first point doesn't stand, it doesn't apply here.
When the Apostles warned the churches not to place restrictions on the Gentiles, AGAIN it was about CIRCUMCISION! Not 'The LAW', or The Ten Commandments. There were NO reports of the Churches requiring the Gentiles to stop murdering and lying and committing adultery! They were trying to curcumcize grown MEN.

So as Christians we are not to observe "the law".Paul says,"Ye are not under the law but under grace"(Ro.6:14).

What is the opposite of Grace? THAT is what you aren't under.

You are probably referring to "circumcision".

BINGO!

But as I have already demonstrated,Paul was speaking about more than just "one law" in Galatians.

Could you cite chapter and verse where he mentions other laws?

Instead,he is speaking about "all things written in the book of the law".

Out of context, that makes sense, but Paul is speaking here of the CURSE of the law, not the law itself.

It also said cursed is every man that hangs on a tree.

Yet we all know that forgiveness was granted to the theif that hung next to Jesus, and he too will be redeemed from the CURSE of the Law.

We are saved from the CURSE of the law, i.e. the penalty, not from the law itself.

The Law is necessary. We need it to see what is wrong with us, so that we see a need for a Savior.

If we do not know what sin is, how can we know we are a sinner?

I think I saw a thread that asked this question.

WHAT are we saved from? Grace removes the CURSE.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[Frank]

Tammy:

Not one of those scriptures refers to Christians or worship of the new testament. The Bible does not say Christians were in the synagogue on the Sabbath for worship. You asserted that while ignoring the context, audience and the words used in the text. It does say Jews,and Greeks were in the synagoue. It also says Paul went there to teach them the gospel of Christ,( Romans 1;16 ), not to worship with animal sacrifices that could never take away sin. Ihe Bible says in Acts 18:1-6, After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
2  And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them.
3  And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
4  And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
5  And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
6  And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles. Moroever, he left the synagouge and worshipped with some who believed in Christ. The Bible says in Acts 18:7,8,And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
8  And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized. There would be no reason to reason and cause anger toward Paul if they were in agreeement about the sabbath assembly and the law. There woudl be no reason to LEAVE the synagogue and go to a man's house and worship. Your argument is simply without merit. The text you posted proves my point. Chapter 17 follows a similar form. Paul reasons out of the scriptures about the need for the Gospel of Christ. verse 4 says " some believed." Some were Greeks,some were chief women. The Jews who did not believe moved with envy against them ( Verse 5,6). Paul DISPUTED with the Jews in the marketplace ( vs., 17). If they were in agreement about the new testament and the old sabbath worship, there would have been no dispute. Again, your contention is without foundation.

The audience, the context, and the language used does not support your assertion. In chapters 17,18,19, Paul's express purpose is to convert these Jews and Greeks to the Gospel of Christ ( Acts 17:15;18:1-13,19:1-20).

The passages in Mark and Luke were written during the time of the life of Christ. The old law was still the authority at that time. There were no Christians at this time only Jews and Gentiles. His blood had not been shed to purchase the saved. Therefore, the old law was still in effect, which includes the Sabbath. ( Hebrews 9:15-17, Acts 20:28). Again, your argument is not supported by the text of scripture posted.

In Acts 22, Paul is praying at the temple. This proves he was praying at the temple. There is no affirmation of worship on the sabbath.

The Bible does say in Acts 20:7,¶And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
The Bible does say in I Cor. 16:1,2, ¶Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2  Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
The Bible does say In Acts 2:42,And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

 

[BobRyan]

Jerry said --

I have already provided a verse from Galatians that proves that when Paul is speaking about "the law" he is including the Ten Commandments.Here is what I said:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Ten Commandents were written in the "book of the law",and that is what the verse I quoted is speaking of:

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith"(Gal.3:10,11).

I don't often find truth in Jerry's treatment of the Law of God in the NT so I have to comment here.

I agree with Jerry on this one point.

In fact as Gal 3 goes on to point out "The LAW" is the "Scripture" and the Scripture has placed all men "under sin". The same is found in Romans 3.

It simply means that the 10 commandments are the moral code that defines sin (see Romans 7) and as such - they point out the fact that all are sinners - even today. They remain "authorotatively" pointing out the fact that all are sinners and all need Christ to save them from sin.

IF you "could" abolish the Law of God - then the sin problem for the wicked - is gone.

Having established that "it remains" - then becoming a Christian only adds to your role in "establishing the LAw through Faith" Romans 3:31.

Whereas in your lost state - the Bible describes your relationship to the law in this way --

Romans 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

I Jn 2:3-4 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[tamborine lady]

I'm sorry, I should have known that posting just what the bible says would not be enough. Because some would like to twist the word and wrest it into the way they want it.

I pray that those of you who do that will live long enough to see the error of your ways.

1st Cor 1-25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

We can't "make" the scripture say things that aren't there!!!


Tam,